[JimInSF]

Hi folks, I'm hoping folks will chip in some opinions on components for my dream build.

I'm building it up as off road touring bike and here's what I've got so far:

- Custom Black Sheep Frame (est 2500g)
- Rear Rohloff Hub (est. 1820g = 4320 total)
- Front Schmidt Son 28SB Dynamo Hub (est 570g = 4890 total)
- Pedals Twenty6 Mag/Ti Prerunners (est 265g = 5155 total)
- XTR FC-M980 Crank (est 745g w/ big ring only = 5900 total)
- Rohloff Chain (est 345g = 6245 total)
- Supernova E3 triple headlight and matching taillight (est 155g = 6400 total)
- Stans Flow (1050g) or Enve XC Clincher (770g) Rims (300 grams spinning mass - worth $1500? = 7450 total w/ Flows)
- WTB Nanoraptor Tires (est 1100g = 8550 total)
- Tubes or sealant (400g = 8950 total)
- Avid BB7 Mechanical Discs (est. 700g with 160mm rotors but excluding levers & cables = 9650 total)
- Gore Cables (est. 200g = 9850 total)
- Speed Dial Ultimate Levers (est 320g = 10170 total)
- Selle Anatomica Titanico Seat (est. 425g = 10595 total)
- Chris King Ti NoThreadSet (est 105g = 10700 total)
- Fox Talas 29 Terralogic 95/120 Fork (est 1900g = 12600 total)
- BS Mountain Moustache Bars, Stem & Post (weight maybe 1000g = 13600 total?)
- Spokes (CX-Ray - est. 280g = 13880 total)
- Grips (Bar tape - 100g? = 13980 total)
- Fox RP23 (est. 210g = 14190 total)
- Assorted bolts (100g)
- Wiring for Lights (100g)
- DT Swiss Ti Skewers (100g)
- Bash Guard (100ish = around 14.6 kilos total)
- Seatpost Collar

Seems pretty heavy for Ti frame and these parts... I know I've got to be adding a few pounds for the Rohloff and Son hub (though dropping batteries and rear derailleur not often added in these weights), a few ounces for the lights, and that's not a lightweight seat, but still, I'm over 32 lbs for a ti bike with fairly top shelf suspension components, XTR cranks, etc., and I've heard stHighlights built at 24 lbs (for example here), and I know the hubs aren't adding 8 lbs! (Here's a Rohloff 26er build at 25...)

Suggestions (other than dropping the hubs)? I know I'm overestimating a bit here and there but I don't think it adds up to 5 pounds... or does it? Show me the error of my ways.

 

[John Jencks]

WEll, looking at your weights, I think your maths are a little off.

Frame est 2000g + rohloff 1820g doesn't equal 4320g.

So you've gained 500g there.

Then you've got flat pedals, that might weigh a bit more.

Front hub IS heavy

don't think you tires are the lightest.

BB7s also not lightest.

Yes the saddle is also HEAVY

 

[JimInSF]

Ah yes, I was editing and dropped the est. frame weight from 2500 to 2000 but then didn't subtract it from the total... now fixed though I may be overestimating frame weight a little.

Anyone else make lighter mechanical discs (for internal frame routing)? Suggestions for a comfy but lightweight seat? (The Brooks Ti models only saved a couple of oz. at most from this, oddly.)

 

[John Jencks]

All brooks style saddles are heavy.

As are mech disks.

It looks like a good build to me, I wouldn't sweat the weight too much.

You might save some weight and money by using the new alfine 11 rather than the roholoff.

 

[JimInSF]

I figure I could save 300 grams with the carbon rims, another 200 with a lighter saddle, and another 200 with light hydraulics, so that's a couple of pounds down (maybe down to 30), and if I overestimated the frame weight I might drop another pound or so, but 29 still seems heavy for an all Ti bike, esp. after going to flyweight on basically everything but the hubs & tires, even going to carbon rims! Am I missing something?

 

[morganfletcher]

I started to write a reply, but it all comes down to your planned usage. What kind of touring? On what kind of surfaces? For how long, how far away from support and bike shops? How heavy are you? Provide more info.

My first instincts are; Why does it need to be lighter, if you're touring? If it needs to be lighter, save weight on the heavy saddle, heavier Flow rims, suspension fork.

If you are going somewhere in the third world for extended periods of time, where you need absolutely bomb-proof equipment that is on the heavy side, you will also be likely to have your bike stolen. This is an expensive build. Why not build it cheaper? It can also be cheaper & lighter; don't base it on a mountain bike, base it on a traditional mountain bike. Something like a Salsa Fargo is hard to beat.

This all comes back to the questions above.

Morgan

 

[JimInSF]

Thanks Morgan (and you too John).

The intended use will be, realistically, 90% day to day street, path & trail riding, generally non-technical singletrack, and when touring, not in the third world but simply off the beaten path here in the U.S., Europe, or Japan.

Weight-wise I'm 210 lbs and tend to fluctuate between 180 and 220 (had a baby this year and put on 20 lbs with the wife). As far as why do it this way, I have a rather odd fit - I'm long of torso and short of leg, and once I tried a FS (Specialized Epic), I thought this rocked and would be the way to go, but none of the stock FS frames really work well for my dimensions - to get the right top tube length, I end up with no standover. The cost is not really an issue - it's my 40th birthday gift, and you only live once.

 

[morganfletcher]

Thanks Morgan (and you too John).

The intended use will be, realistically, 90% day to day street, path & trail riding, generally non-technical singletrack, and when touring, not in the third world but simply off the beaten path here in the U.S., Europe, or Japan.

Weight-wise I'm 210 lbs and tend to fluctuate between 180 and 220 (had a baby this year and put on 20 lbs with the wife). As far as why do it this way, I have a rather odd fit - I'm long of torso and short of leg, and once I tried a FS (Specialized Epic), I thought this rocked and would be the way to go, but none of the stock FS frames really work well for my dimensions - to get the right top tube length, I end up with no standover. The cost is not really an issue - it's my 40th birthday gift, and you only live once.

Sounds like a basic touring bike would be way more useful than a mountain bike. A suspension fork on a loaded touring bike is not really fun, or useful. Same for wide mtn bike rims, big tires, even tubeless. I wouldn't worry about weight on a touring bike. People who do long tours on mountain bikes tend to build them such that they look and function more like a classic touring bike.

This is tangential, but perhaps helpful:

I am also a dad. Mine are now 11 and 13. When I first became a dad, I wasn't riding as much. I was restless and I missed bikes, and I obsessed about gear. In fact, any time I haven't been able to ride, I have started obsessing about bikes themselves. (Old bikes, fancy bikes, expensive bikes, components, mods, collecting them, etc.) The more I ride, the less I think about bikes; buying them, making them better, building the ultimate anything. The more I ride, the more the bike I'm riding seems awesome the way it is.

I think touring is similar. I've done it, some. You can totally dream up a fantastic bike, but really something basic, durable and functional always wins.

Back to that bike; use occam's razor. Cut everything down to be lighter, simpler, sturdy and functional. You read about people who go on tour and end up mailing home or giving away things that they don't need? Do that with the bike's build, now.

Sorry for the tangential reply. Ride more, think about the bike less. And while I'm handing out advice you didn't ask for, talk to the builder and ask their advice. If your builder has never done what you're thinking about doing, or built generations of bikes for people doing that thing, find another builder. You are finding your way in the wilderness, as far as build and spec go. You have run up a big imaginary bill, so that if any of your choices are off, they're expensive mistakes. Run it by a couple frame/bike builders, also people who've one similar trips.

OK back to work.

Morgan

 

[JimInSF]

The advice is appreciated anyway. I'll certainly ask James if I'm crazy to consider it, though my impression is that Todd didn't think so based on a more detailed description of my day to day riding preferences.

But given that the bike will be 90% normal mountain bike use rather than touring, wouldn't you think I should buy for my 90% case and not my 10% case? (My favorite kind of riding is singletrack trail riding, so this is what I really targeted the bike at, but with some additions to add versatility - the fact that it will hopefully also be used for touring is less significant. Of course, you may be right that touring on a suspension bike is not ideal - if so, I'd probably more inclined to get another bike than live day to day on the touring bike and end up on the road more because of that choice.)

P.S.--> You're right of course that ride more, obsess less is always the right answer.

 

[morganfletcher]

Ah, I didn't get the 90% normal mtn bike riding part!

I was thinking touring as primary use.

Maybe get a spare, rigid fork with rack eyelets and the a-c measurement as the suspension fork. Go lighter seat, Arch rims (or those Edges, I have a set and they're *****en.), tubeless, which is way less than 400g, hydro discs like Formular R1s or Avid Elixirs.

By "big ring only" I think you mean middle + bash guard?

Sorry for the tangents.

FWIW, I'm doing the same weight weenie thing with my next build, in a spreadsheet!

Morgan

 

[morganfletcher]

*****en means b-i-t-c-h-e-n

 

[JimInSF]

Thanks. I'm actually having them design a custom rack for it that will bolt on to the seatpost - ever notice that FS bikes do not tend to have rack mounts because racks or usually designed to bolt to the stays? (And having a bunch of weight on the moving suspension parts would compromise suspension effectiveness, not to mention bouncing your stuff all over the place.) Hopefully the rigid fork will not be necessary but it's a good idea if that should come to pass.

Any ideas on the crankset? The one thing that's sticking in my craw that I think it might be hard to achieve the Rohloff chainline with the XTR crankset, I'll end up on the outer ring. Of course, using a bigger ring is helpful efficiency-wise, but will it work to replace the middle & inner ring with spacers? Is there a better crank for this purpose? I'm thinking that a single optimized setup with a ring not optimized for shifting and a BB with spindle of just the right length might be preferred but not sure if this is really how folks do it or how light it would be.

 

[azjonboy]

Have you thought of using the BS Faith fork for touring? You'd lose some weight there and gain stiffness for better tracking under load. Switch to a suspension fork for your off roads riding. I switch between my Reba and Faith depending on how my wrists are feeling and what I'm riding.

 

[morganfletcher]

I don't know much about Rohloffs. I do know, from single speeding, that the middle ring position usually is the best solution for a centered chainline.

I think Neal at Cycle Monkey is the guy to talk about Rohloff-related builds.

Morgan

 

[skiahh]

Since it's a dream build...

Delete Fox Talas (est 1900)

Add Lefty Carbon Max (1356g)

Lighter, stiffer, smoother. And, of course, more expensive.

 

[JimInSF]

Since it's a dream build...

Delete Fox Talas (est 1900)

Add Lefty Carbon Max (1356g)

Lighter, stiffer, smoother. And, of course, more expensive.

I would definitely run a Lefty if it were possible with the Son hub but the dynamo is more important to me - I know folks say you can just carry more batteries but after having lost light power on a couple of rides that lasted longer than expected into the night, I'd rather have 100% reliable lighting.

 

[olapiquena]

did you already put a deposit down on this..... contraption?

 

[JimInSF]

Yep! Can't wait (though it'll be 5-6 mos. before the frame is done if they got their timing right). But it's no more a contraption than any other bike really! (Ok, maybe a little... I don't think I'm quite building the Homermobile...) Just adding IGH and lighting rather than going for weight alone like most folks around here seem to build for, and building for FS with 27" standover.

 

[AEC]

forget the BB7s and get some of the new Margura's, new XTR's, the Avid XX or the more affordable but still sweet Hayes Gram Strokers.

 

[JimInSF]

Todd at BS advised me to stick with mechanical brakes for ease of internal cable routing, and this was actually a bit of a relief - I'm a bit hydrophobic. I've had good experience with the BB7s and as far as I can tell, the XX brakes & rotors only shave off 50g (and in any event I'll need different rotors anyway since the SON hub requires CenterLock rotors and the Rohloff has its own rotor standard...).

Does anyone make lighter mechanical/cable actuated brakes?