How big of a fork are you talking about? That will make a big difference imo. A lot of newer short travel hardtails are getting down close to the 65 range, and they ride great with a 120-130 fork. If you're talking about the new big hardtails that are coming out with 160ish forks, those are a whole different animal.
Do you get used to a 65º head tube angle?
(Talking mainly hardtail...)
Coming from the last couple bikes that have been around 66.5-67º hta, how much different is a slacker angle at 65?
I'd mainly be riding it for some casual trail rides and simple, slow pedaling around for short commutes, and a pretty even mix of tight and twisty, rooty technical trails and some single track flow (southwest Ohio). Along with the occasional 2-3 foot jumps and drops. Basically wanting an all-around-er.
So I'm wondering if it's too slack or aggressive for the above scenarios, or do you get used to it and it works well for most things? My concern is hearing how it's said to be floppy and less responsive steering unless you're flowing at higher speeds.
Coming from the hta mentioned, maybe it's not too big of a jump? I know some hard tails are coming at 64º and lower now.
Coming from the last couple bikes that have been around 66.5-67º hta, how much different is a slacker angle at 65?
I'd mainly be riding it for some casual trail rides and simple, slow pedaling around for short commutes, and a pretty even mix of tight and twisty, rooty technical trails and some single track flow (southwest Ohio). Along with the occasional 2-3 foot jumps and drops. Basically wanting an all-around-er.
So I'm wondering if it's too slack or aggressive for the above scenarios, or do you get used to it and it works well for most things? My concern is hearing how it's said to be floppy and less responsive steering unless you're flowing at higher speeds.
Coming from the hta mentioned, maybe it's not too big of a jump? I know some hard tails are coming at 64º and lower now.
1 - 20 of 80 Posts
It's a 150mm Lyrik on a 2020 Commencal Meta HT 29 Race.How big of a fork are you talking about? That will make a big difference imo. A lot of newer short travel hardtails are getting down close to the 65 range, and they ride great with a 120-130 fork. If you're talking about the new big hardtails that are coming out with 160ish forks, those are a whole different animal.
The other bit that confuses me at times (unless they say it) is if the geo chart means the hta is when sagged or static. In the example of this bike, I'm not sure, but I'm assuming 65 is static(?).
My Ti hardtail was theoretically supposed to be around 67 degrees, but the seller has notoriously questionable geo charts. I finally measured the actual a few days ago after owning the bike a few years and the actual is 65. Over those couple of years I've loved the crap out of that bike, so not only did I get used to it, I love it. Granted, mine has a slightly shorter reach, longer chain stays and slacker seat angle than the latest geo-chart princesses, but it works out brilliantly for my riding. This is with a 120mm fork.
Easy enough to make a minor change with rake of fork. Pike, for instance is available with 51mm or a few other offsets, effectively changing caster. Caster can introduce the floppy thing and make a chopper or an OTB factory with either too much or too little.(Talking mainly hardtail...)
Coming from the last couple bikes that have been around 66.5-67º hta, how much different is a slacker angle at 65?
I'd mainly be riding it for some casual trail rides and simple, slow pedaling around for short commutes, and a pretty even mix of tight and twisty, rooty technical trails and some single track flow (southwest Ohio). Along with the occasional 2-3 foot jumps and drops. Basically wanting an all-around-er.
So I'm wondering if it's too slack or aggressive for the above scenarios, or do you get used to it and it works well for most things? My concern is hearing how it's said to be floppy and less responsive steering unless you're flowing at higher speeds.
Coming from the hta mentioned, maybe it's not too big of a jump? I know some hard tails are coming at 64º and lower now.
Depends on the rider and terrain, as per usual.
My local trails are tight and twisty with lots of trees and punchy climbs. I have a Honzo ST with 140 fork and angle headset that results in about 66 degree HTA. It feels super aggressive (in a good way) compared to my XC hardtails. It's a ton of fun. For my trails this is the sweet spot I think, any slacker would probably start working against you at some point.
One of the biggest differences to me is that I just need to lean the bike more and generally throw it around a little harder, which is fun and different from my other hardtails that are twitchy by comparison.
I personally think the Commencal is probably nearing the upper limit for what is practical on your local terrain. It'll be just fine though, you'll have to give it a shot and see if you like it.
My local trails are tight and twisty with lots of trees and punchy climbs. I have a Honzo ST with 140 fork and angle headset that results in about 66 degree HTA. It feels super aggressive (in a good way) compared to my XC hardtails. It's a ton of fun. For my trails this is the sweet spot I think, any slacker would probably start working against you at some point.
One of the biggest differences to me is that I just need to lean the bike more and generally throw it around a little harder, which is fun and different from my other hardtails that are twitchy by comparison.
I personally think the Commencal is probably nearing the upper limit for what is practical on your local terrain. It'll be just fine though, you'll have to give it a shot and see if you like it.
Looks like it has a shorter 46mm offset, so maybe that will help reduce the floppy / chopper feeling and be a little more snappy (or I am thinking about it in reverse)?Easy enough to make a minor change with rake of fork. Pike, for instance is available with 51mm or a few other offsets, effectively changing caster. Caster can introduce the floppy thing and make a chopper or an OTB factory with either too much or too little.
A hardtail? Gross.
You could speed up steering response and add some slow speed liveliness if you steepened up a degree or two. For what you're describing 67 would be pretty spot on. 66 if you want a little more stability at speed and better front wheel rollover. Nothing really bad about 65 for what you're describing it just won't be an asset. You'll get used to it and ride fine.
I ride a Ragley Marley with a 65ish (I think 65.5 degree) head angle in Central Ohio, and it works OK. There is an acclimation period. It's not too noticeable on the old tight and twisty hand cut trails (eg, Alum Creek), wanders a bit while climbing, and is great pointed downhill at places like Chestnut Ridge. But, I've also ridden bikes around 67 degree HA, and I think those are a little better balanced for my trails. The Ragley is still fun, though.
Outside of really slow tight trails I don't think there's much disadvantage to a 65° HTA. Generally, I'd rather have a shorter reach and slacker HTA than longer and steeper if wheelbase is a concern.
I pushed the hta of my hardtail from 68° to 65.5° to improve the ride when pointing down, expecting a commensurate penalty across the rest of my riding, and was pleasantly surprised by how nearly-imperceptible the negative changes ended up being (especially in light of how monumentally the downhill performance improved).
I still don't understand having the front end writing checks the back end can't cash. I do understand it allows you to roll steep chunk with less chance to go OTB, but don't really see as fun.
If you're talking about long travel hardtails I agree, if you're talking about geo I'm not sure what you mean...short chainstays?I still don't understand having the front end writing checks the back end can't cash. I do understand it allows you to roll steep chunk with less chance to go OTB, but don't really see as fun.
65 is a good middle of the road HA for a modern bike. People get too fixated on head angle, every other tube has changed making the slacker head angle feel more neutral than you think it will. A 67 today is a purpose built XC race bike instead of an all rounder.
My experience is with full suspension, but going from a bike with a steep head tube to a slack one, it took me a little while to get used to cornering. The old bike would oversteer, and the new understeer. Wasn't a problem, just an adjustment period. I have no issues or complaints and love the slacker geo.
HTA is blown way out of proportion. For the most part, you'll adapt to it, but it won't give you any dramatic benefit either. The biggest hit I notice for going slacker is steep uphill switchbacks. Those get significantly tougher IME, but there are other factors that are generally contributing to that that kind of go along, like more travel, longer WB, higher CG, etc.
But going a few degrees slacker or steeper doesn't really make a huge difference to me, even less with bigger wheels IME. Other things like dropper posts, wide bars to prevent the wheel from going sideways (which causes the endo), shifting weight backwards/unweighting the front, reach/stem length and so on, have a much bigger effect than a few degrees of HTA. Lots of people think you "have to start at 65 degrees and go slacker from there", as in they can't ride anything steeper. I've been down enough steep slabs and chutes to know this is just not the case, even less so with bigger 29" wheels. It's just not a dramatic difference. If you add all of these things together of course, shifting weight, dropper post, reach, HTA, then yes, cumulatively, you can have a pretty radical difference...but just one and especially HTA? Nope. I think it "seems" like the most direct effect, but that's related back more to the twitchy bikes with crazy short bars and long stems where we didn't have the control over the front end. Now with the additional leverage we have over the front, the HTA matters a lot less IMO.
Not that I'm advocating to go back to 70 degrees or anything...just that this one parameter gets blown WAY out of proportion.
But going a few degrees slacker or steeper doesn't really make a huge difference to me, even less with bigger wheels IME. Other things like dropper posts, wide bars to prevent the wheel from going sideways (which causes the endo), shifting weight backwards/unweighting the front, reach/stem length and so on, have a much bigger effect than a few degrees of HTA. Lots of people think you "have to start at 65 degrees and go slacker from there", as in they can't ride anything steeper. I've been down enough steep slabs and chutes to know this is just not the case, even less so with bigger 29" wheels. It's just not a dramatic difference. If you add all of these things together of course, shifting weight, dropper post, reach, HTA, then yes, cumulatively, you can have a pretty radical difference...but just one and especially HTA? Nope. I think it "seems" like the most direct effect, but that's related back more to the twitchy bikes with crazy short bars and long stems where we didn't have the control over the front end. Now with the additional leverage we have over the front, the HTA matters a lot less IMO.
Not that I'm advocating to go back to 70 degrees or anything...just that this one parameter gets blown WAY out of proportion.
Catch up, old chap. It’s a lot more fun if you have the skills, WAY more fun.I still don't understand having the front end writing checks the back end can't cash. I do understand it allows you to roll steep chunk with less chance to go OTB, but don't really see as fun.
More like 67 is what xc race bikes run because xc racing has become much more technical. When trail riding flatter twisty type terrain, anything slacker than 67 isn't going to do anything for you other than make the bike feel like it want's to get up to speeds the gradients won't provide.65 is a good middle of the road HA for a modern bike. People get too fixated on head angle, every other tube has changed making the slacker head angle feel better than you think it will. A 67 today is a purpose built XC race bike instead of an all rounder.
My 2018 Transition Sentinel had a 64 degree HTA and I loved it. I couldn't feel a big difference between 64 and 66 though. I also had a 2018 Transition Scout which had 66 degrees (If I recall correctly).
1 - 20 of 80 Posts
- This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Mountain Bike Reviews Forum
A forum community dedicated to Mountain Bike owners and enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about bike parts, components, deals, performance, modifications, classifieds, trails, troubleshooting, maintenance, and more!
Full Forum Listing
Explore Our Forums
Recommended Communities
