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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi all,

I'm looking at a new frame. I travel a fair bit so can really only have one bike. My short list so far is:

Knolly Delirium T
Nicolai Helius FR
Orange Patriot
Specialized SX '09

Any thoughts on which way to go or other suggestions?

Thanks.
 

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Ideas Above My Station...
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Add the SS instead. I Came from an Orange 5, and was considering the Patriot. But the SS has impressed me so much, i'd never go back to Single Pivot. The SS has been outstanding since i got it, and it looks like you are looking at very similar kinds of bike. (I was also looking at the SxT, Patriot)
The SS does what the Uzzi did, and alot more on top.
 

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check your six
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I do not have one, but I would love to! Go for the SS! I have yet to see a negative review on one of those rigs!
 

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What do you mean by "do it all"?

I would suggest the new 09 SX Trial or 09 SX both awesome bikes that are strong and light. and I noticed you said you would be traveling, so that makes the SX even better due to it's 180mm travel single crown fork and good size for fitting into a bike box.....before you buy though go test one from a shop or demo program......:thumbsup:
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I suppose one bike that will handle final ligure or whistler type terrain but won't kill me if I try to ride a few 2-3 hour loops on it. I'm not going to be hucking 50ft doubles but only like riding up if there is a challenging downhill to make it worthwhile afterwards.

What's the difference between the SX and the SX trial?

Good point by the way... fitting in a bike bag/box is essential, I use a Da Kine bag at present and the whole bike + bag package should ideally be <32kg!
 

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Look at the Canfield offerings also

The Canfield Brothers One and CanDiggle would be options. One is the lighter, more AM, version that is still capable. CanDiggle is a very pedalable FR/DH sort of rig. Both are 7 or 8 inches of travel and the One I rode climbed fantastic and weighed in at 32 lbs. Search the forums as there are quite a few posts about them floating about.
 

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The SX has an air shock and less travel (about 4inches) and SXtrail (has the coil shock with around 7inches of travel). These will fit easily into the Dakine case.......

A built up SX will be between 28-31lbs and an SXtrail will be around 32-34lbs.

If you can wait I would most definetly wait for the new 09 SX trail...or check out a Kona Coilair or Specialized Enduro.

just my thoughts
 

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dirt visionary
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Another vote for The Sxtrail . I sold my enduro because my sxtrail did what it did and more. Plus with the right fork it will make the job even easier ,I have the talas rc2 on mine so a quick flip of the switch and climbs become easier.
 

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Elitest thrill junkie
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Photo-John said:
Bionicon. I have the Golden Willow - the smallest one. But check out the Ironwood if you want a DH bike that can really do it all.
I don't agree, the suspension on those bikes is poor compared to what you can get these days, and the Ironwood is not only a mediocre DH bike with that suspension and design (air shocks and high pivot), but it's a crappy do-it-all bike, my turner descends and climbs better, possibly due to the rear end stiffness, possibly due to the suspension (6" of good travel is better than 8" of poor travel). The thing, with the Ironwood especially, is that it's a bike that's supposed to be good at many things because of the adjustable suspension, but it ends up being a lot poorer than many other bikes because you have travel-adjust forks and ETA mechanisms that give you 90% of the benefit without the huge hit in suspension performance, so to put it simply, other bikes do a much better job of "doing it all" and doing it better.

I demoed the Ironwood...not a very impressive bike. The other Bionicons have a little more going for them because they do offer something different, but then again the reliance on that one air-shock and mediocre suspension holds them back. I see they're trying to do the coil-suspension as I suggested earlier to them, but you'll still have DW-link and other bikes that have far better suspension, as well as with the bionicons you'll lose out on some of the benefits of suspension development because you can't just go bolt on any shock. Going to the coil shock also goes in the other direction with weight, so even less competative. A lot of the lighter (XC and AM) bikes are going to compete against bikes with air shocks, so in that setting the GW, SS and Ed aren't necessarily going to be at a huge disadvantage, but when a coil-equipped bike weighs a little lighter and does everything better than an air-shock equipped DH bike, what's the point of that bike in the first place?

If you want something that can "do it all" you can build up a turner, ventana, or plethora of other bikes with far better suspension than the ironwood at a similer weight, put a travel adjust fork on there (totem, lyric, talas, marz with ETA) and you get something that rides better in all situations.
 

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Fartographer
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Jayem said:
I demoed the Ironwood...not a very impressive bike. The other Bionicons have a little more going for them because they do offer something different, but then again the reliance on that one air-shock and mediocre suspension holds them back. I see they're trying to do the coil-suspension as I suggested earlier to them, but you'll still have DW-link and other bikes that have far better suspension, as well as with the bionicons you'll lose out on some of the benefits of suspension development because you can't just go bolt on any shock. Going to the coil shock also goes in the other direction with weight, so even less competative. A lot of the lighter (XC and AM) bikes are going to compete against bikes with air shocks, so in that setting the GW, SS and Ed aren't necessarily going to be at a huge disadvantage, but when a coil-equipped bike weighs a little lighter and does everything better than an air-shock equipped DH bike, what's the point of that bike in the first place?
Where did you demo the Ironwood? Getting the bike set up right is critical. I really didn't like the Golden Willow until they helped me get the air pressure right. As for suspension, I agree that other suspension companies may offer a better overall fork. But nobody offers the specific compromise that Bionicon does. It's not as much about the weight as it is about the geometry adjustment. I've had lighter bikes than my GW but none of them climbed as well. And there isn't anything out there that comes close as far as climbing and descending. So if you really want a bike that can do it all, I don't think there's any competition. I know I could have a bike with better suspension feel than my Golden Willow. But it wouldn't do what I really want it to do - go up and then go down. And I'm ridiculously happy with how well it works. The fork actually kicks ass and I like the X-Fusion air shock, too. It's not a DH bike, but I like riding the Bionicon more than my DH bike.

The coil on the Ironwood in the photo is a prototype Cane Creek Double Barrel. I agree that it would be good for them to have more options. I'm psyched to see they've found someone else willing to set up a rear shock to work with their system.
 

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Elitest thrill junkie
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Photo-John said:
Where did you demo the Ironwood?
Right here. (from the demo van)

Getting the bike set up right is critical.
And when is this not true? It's a high pivot single pivot bike that comes equipped with an air shock. Sorry to say, but there's only so much it can do and there are lots of bikes that perform far better. Not really debatable, far better suspension, compramise between pedaling and plush, and so forth.

As for suspension, I agree that other suspension companies may offer a better overall fork.
True, but when your lesser-travel fork and suspension feels a lot better, you ask yourself why you're riding the extra weight or extra ride-height for little gain.

But nobody offers the specific compromise that Bionicon does. It's not as much about the weight as it is about the geometry adjustment.
I highly disagree here. I have used marzocchi forks with ETA for years now, and I don't see any gain from the Bionicon bike, and I can put those marz forks on ANY bike. I find the bionicons "lowest" setting in the front useless for all but the steepest switchbacks, but I can also lower my front end with ETA to do the same thing if I want. The ETA does exactly what I want, it steepens the front end and lowers the fork. The bionicon doesn't change the BB height, but I find that can easily be a negative (I'd rather have a lower BB for climbing). So the Ironwood gets my "what is the point?" award, because with ETA or a different travel-adjustment, I can adjust the front end and drop it for climbing on any bike, the normally relaxed angles steepen, and it becomes better for climbing up hills. Even with the other manufacturers stuff (talas, u-turn, 2-step) you get most of the benefits of lowering that front end. I can build up a LIGHTER bike than the Ironwood, and on the descents the suspension performs better, so easier to climb, better at descending. What's the point of the Ironwood? IMO, either go all-out and make it a DH bike with decent suspension, or make the lighter weight air-shock bikes that compete with other AM bikes. The Ironwood "freeride/dh bike that you can ride uphill" is killed by all the other "freeride/dh bikes that you can ride uphill" that perform better that the Ironwood in all areas. Realize that I've ridden both (and even hopped on the GW for a bit), a heavier bike is a heavier bike, and it doesn't matter how great it pedals (but the Ironwood pedals poorly in the rough stuff due to the high pivot suspension), the Ironwood is a very "lost" bike IMO. If I wanted a do-it-all bike, I'd go with something that has decent suspension. If I wanted a DH bike, I'd get one of those and put on the proper stuff.

The coil on the Ironwood in the photo is a prototype Cane Creek Double Barrel. I agree that it would be good for them to have more options. I'm psyched to see they've found someone else willing to set up a rear shock to work with their system.
Yep, that could go a ways to improving their bikes.

So anyways, in summary, if you want a good all-around do-it-all bike, I wouldn't recommend the Ironwood. You can simply do better in the area of "do-it-all" bikes. Realize that your GW will be quite a bit more active and pedal through the rough stuff much better than the Ironwood or a bike with similer suspension.
 

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Fartographer
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Tahoe? A real ride? I'm not questioning your judgement. Just curious about how much of a workout you were able to give it. The Ironwood is actually the one Bionicon I haven't ridden. I actually don't like the Edison because it's the top tube is too short for my taste. I love the Golden Willow (except for the name) and I like the Supershuttle quite a bit, too.

The one place I will disagree with you is about the system. Marzocchi's ETA is cool, as are the Talas system and everyone else's that allows you to lower the height of the fork. But you can't really do that on the fly, like you can with the Bionicon. And the Bionicon also adjusts the seat tube angle, making for the most comfortable and efficient climbing position possible. Like I said, I've had a bunch of bikes, including a Truth, and the Golden Willow climbs better than anything. Of course, with the Horst link, it is super active and I dig that. The rest of the bikes don't have that.

Anyway, I made a suggestion. I love the Bionicon system and I encourage gweb to check out the bikes. If they aren't for him, cool. But he might love them. No way for him to know without trying one.

How's your Huffy? :p
 

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Elitest thrill junkie
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Photo-John said:
Tahoe? What's in Tahoe?

In any case, I can use ETA just fine on the fly, and I do it nearly every ride.

I'm not sure why you're talking so much about the golden willow, it's the ironwood that you recommended.

In any case, realize that ETA and other fork-lowering devices are doing the EXACT same thing as bionicon (rotating the bike forward), except you end up with a lower bottom-bracket height. Some may or may not like this, but it doesn't change all that much and I find it to be a benefit to have a lower BB when climbing.

Part of it also stems from the type of riding I like to do, big long sustained climbs and big long sustained downhills. When doing the rides that were not big-long-climbs, I found it tiresome and irritating to be figiting with the bionicon travel/geometry adjust function all the time. I just want to ride my bike, not optimize it for every 50 foot downhill/uphill.
 

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dirt visionary
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It was here in Phx ,Az @ South Mountain more than terrain for a real ride impression.... I too have ridden it and wasn't impressed after some time in the saddle. I ride a talas on my all mt/freeride bike and there is no problem switching the travel in a moments notice in either dirrection .
 
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