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Do I really need a Ti hard tail frame ?

12K views 66 replies 31 participants last post by  socal_jack 
#1 ·
Two of the bikes I'm currently looking at offer their frames in chromoly and Ti. I was initially set on a Ti frame but the more I think about it I keep asking myself is it worth paying 3x the cost on a frame. Aside from saving 2lbs. is there a huge benefit to a Ti frame. I tell myself I could put the $ into a higher end build but then I go right back to wanting that Ti frame.
Can you help talk me out of it or why I should just go for it.
I'm not a racer and there's not much in the way of climbing where that weight saving would matter.Something about that Ti frame though. Talk some sense into me please.

For reference the bikes are a Stanton Switch9er and a RSD MC.
 
#4 · (Edited)
My buddy, who is 165 pounds soaking wet and who rides very light on his bike, snapped the seat stay on his new this year Seven Mobius SL.
Tire Wheel Bicycle Bicycle wheel Crankset

I would be leery of Ti. I have heard of too many horror stories about issues at the welds.

Ended his season early. He has almost $20k sunk into that bike.

I’d go for steel.

But then again, I have 3 steel bikes in my garage that I worship - a Honzo, a Unit and a Paddy Wagon. I have more bikes than I want to admit. If I could keep only one. It would not be my Druid. Or my e-bike. It would be my beloved steel Honzo
Tire Wheel Bicycle Bicycles--Equipment and supplies Crankset
 
#23 ·
To weld Ti properly, there can't be any Oxygen, it must all be displaced while welding. In practice, this makes it challenging to get perfect titanium welds. Not impossible, but they are generally more challenging and more likely to have a quality issue/flaw in the weld than other materials like steel and aluminum. If O2 gets in there, it makes the weld brittle. Ti has great strength, but it doesn't have the best stiffness, so in some applications it can also be somewhat flexy, as in power strokes and BB flex or other parts of the bike. That could also be "compliance", depending on your point of view. In practice, it's easier to make stiffer aluminum frames due to hydroforming and being able to manipulate tube thickness and shape more and steel is naturally stiffer. Ti is hard to machine, so you tend to not get as many complex shapes like CNCed chainstay yokes and dropouts, or "FS" Ti bikes tend to not have Ti rear ends and linkages due to the complexity of making those parts out of Ti, and again, it's not very optimal because on an FS bike you want a very stiff rear end, to combat the inherent flex you get just by having pivots and rear suspension. You do get the corrosion/oxidation resistance benefit with Ti. IMO, Ti was kind of made out to be a magical wonder-metal back in the 90s, as far as bicycles were concerned. It's not bad if done right...but I do think it's way way more expensive than any of the benefits can justify.
 
#10 ·
Two of the bikes I'm currently looking at offer their frames in chromoly and Ti. I was initially set on a Ti frame but the more I think about it I keep asking myself is it worth paying 3x the cost on a frame. Aside from saving 2lbs. is there a huge benefit to a Ti frame. I tell myself I could put the $ into a higher end build but then I go right back to wanting that Ti frame.
Can you help talk me out of it or why I should just go for it.
I'm not a racer and there's not much in the way of climbing where that weight saving would matter.Something about that Ti frame though. Talk some sense into me please.

For reference the bikes are a Stanton Switch9er and a RSD MC.
Nope. You don’t really “need” a Ti Hardtail frame.
maybe the question should be: do I want a Ti frame?
The answer is yes.
Life is short so buy the Ti frame.
I did and yes, it rides and looks so good.
modern geo, sliders, supple ride
 
#50 ·
I bought a Carver Gnarvester frame and had my LBS build it up.
I sold two steel bikes ( Instigator and Krampus) I really loved to make this happen.
I am sooooo glad I did it. Ti is a frame material I have lusted after since the Merlin days.
The ride is magical. The smile on my face is unmatched by any of the other bikes.
I still lust after a 44bikes Ti Marauder, but until i can put together some $$$$, I will be happy with the Gnar.
 
#3 ·
Design, design, design. Of the types you're talking about, you could have one model and the Ti version will be more compliant and ride more velvety. Another model, the Ti version will ride stiffer and feel quicker while the steel version will feel more compliant and muted. Without being able to ride each, its a crapshoot and you could probably make up the feel difference in tires/pressures/handlebars.

Me? Got one Ti and one steel. The one indisputable Ti advantage is that it cleans up with a Scotch Brite pad, and there is no concern of rust, abrasion, paint chips or oxidation. Either choice you make will be a good one.
 
#5 ·
Just before the turn of the century I wanted a ti frame in the worst way.
I thought, "It won't rust, offers a supple ride, doesn't have to be painted (in fact ti looks best unpainted) -- it'll be the last frame I ever buy."

So glad I never bought one.

I think of all the changes that mountain bikes have gone through since then...
  • Disc brakes
  • Tapered head tubes
  • Boost spacing
  • Major geo changes
  • Ti is typically hardtail only
It would not have been the last frame I ever bought.
I now ride FS bikes exclusively. Ones with modern geo.

I'm not saying don't do it, I'm just suggesting you consider how you'll feel in a few years.
Maybe you only buy one bike every 10-15 years or so (whereas I don't.)
I average a new bike each year.
But if it fits your master plan, ti is absolutely still a cool metal -- maybe the coolest.
=sParty
 
#18 ·
I resemble this remark. I moved my old Ti frame for a newer one for exactly those changes - boost, geo, wide tire capacity, etc. But, I think the truly innovative stuff has been figured out at this point and I personally wouldn't have fear of missing out.

I guess I'd look at it this way - are you a hardtail guy, or are you not a hardtail guy or don't know yet? If you are sure you're a hardtail guy and always want to have one in your stable, it may be worth the investment in Ti. If you're not sure, only want one bike and don't know if a hardtail will stick around longer term, Ti might not be worth it. I'm pretty much a die-hard HT guy, so I knew mine would stick around. It has and I've ridden the hell out of it. My squish bikes are the ones that come and go. YMMV.
 
#6 ·
That Mobius is not a good look. If it were mine, I'd get warranty replacement and sell it straight away.

That said, OP don't let the above post sway you one way or the other. Hardtail design is an entirely different ball game and titanium lends itself well to double-diamond hardtail bike frames, but not necessarily anything else. The ones you're looking at are probably made by ORA in Taiwan, which are Ti wizards and make a frame of excellent quality. Yes, Ti can break, and so can everything else including steel.
 
#7 · (Edited)
Don’t disagree. Another buddy of mine is rocking a Ti Chromag with zero issues. Other guys I know rode Moots and LiteSpeed Ti frames for years with no issues.

All that said, I have heard of a lot of issues with Ti welds. Just throwing my anecdotal evidence (with a pic I snapped a week ago) into the pot for the OP to consider. He can do with it what he wishes. He asked us to talk him out of a ti frame. That’s all I got.

PS - I also know a metric $hit tonne of guys who have been rocking the ti Honzo HARD on pro lines for years. You are preaching to the converted. Personally, all other things equal, I think steel is a little more robust. But hey, wouldn’t be the first time I’m wrong.
 
#8 ·
I've got a Ti frame (Motobecane) that isn't one of the top name brands but I've put thousands of miles on that bike since 2013, and ridden it as both a full-geared / front suspension bike and as a single-speed bike (the current set up), and it's in fine shape....thought about rebuilding it into a gravel bike due to the older geometry.....
 
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#24 ·
Bicycle Wheel Bicycles--Equipment and supplies Tire Crankset

I have both Ti and steel and have been buying hardtail's for many years. #1 Not all steel nor all Ti frames are the same. It really is a matter of finding a frame that has a nice supple feel. One of the first Ti frames I bought was straight gauge tubing and very stiff, to stiff but those where also the days of 26" wheels with narrow i19mm rims with 2.1" tires and tubes. That definitely added to the overly stiff ride. My first 29er was a Niner Sir9 853 Reynolds steel frame. The wheels were still narrow with i24mm rims and 2.3' tubeless tires, it was better but still too stiff for the trails I ride. I eventually went ahead and got a custom Ti frame from Seven but honestly I think a custom steel from would have rode just as nice. As you can see my rimes are wide and my tires are big with CushCore and Rimpact inserts. That improves the feel 100%. So my long answer is; A good (not overbuilt) butted and tapered steel frame is just as nice or perhaps better than a Ti frame. My newer Esker Japhy steel frame rides 10x better than my Niner Sir9 and I honestly think it's also about the Geo and the shape of stays, plus the wheels.
 
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#34 ·
I have a ton of miles on my 3 titanium frames and love to ride them, but I bought them used and got good deals. I doubt I'd pay full retail for a new one.
I also love my Reynolds 853 bikeand have had numerous Tange Prestige and Ritchey Logic Prestige frames that I really liked. There are definitely many variables, but among the bikes I've got I don't have a huge preference for one of those materials over the other.
I get enough frame flex out of the Reynolds frame and out of the ti frames to rub the rear tire on the inside of the chainstays. I am only 170lbs geared up, but have bikepacked with both the steel frame and one of the ti frames and both were pretty whippy under an additional 60lbs of gear and water.
 
#36 ·
I have a ton of miles on my 3 titanium frames and love to ride them, but I bought them used and got good deals. I doubt I'd pay full retail for a new one.
I also love my Reynolds 853 bikeand have had numerous Tange Prestige and Ritchey Logic Prestige frames that I really liked. There are definitely many variables, but among the bikes I've got I don't have a huge preference for one of those materials over the other.
I get enough frame flex out of the Reynolds frame and out of the ti frames to rub the rear tire on the inside of the chainstays. I am only 170lbs geared up, but have bikepacked with both the steel frame and one of the ti frames and both were pretty whippy under an additional 60lbs of gear and water.
Yeah, I have an old Merckx Reynolds 753 road bike. Apparently 753 is the earlier version if 853, but 753 was harder to make, needing silver brazing for cool welding or something. Anyway, assuming stiffness of 853 is similar to 753, I agree those steel frames rode very nice and seemed stiff enough. I'm around 200 lbs and never noticed the wheel touching a chain stay. I heard that, in the years my bike was made, Merckx added rifling to the lower seat tube (and maybe downtube, not sure) to help stiffen the BB, but he didn't add that to the 753 because it was already very stiff compared to normal bike-making steel. Not sure how that relates to the subject but there you go. :)
 
#38 ·
Reynolds 853 has a strength to weight ratio close to that of Ti 3Al-2.5V. As a result the tubing is drawn with thinner walls similar to what is done with Ti, so it also does Ti-ish things - rides phenomenally and can get flexy or whippy. I rode two road frames by the same builder, one in 853 and one in Ti, and from the saddle I really couldn't detect a meaningful difference except that the Ti felt a hair more springy and the 853 a hair more damped. They were much more similar than different.
 
#46 ·
My 94 Kona hei hei has lived on trainer now 5 years after 15 years of riding and commuter duty. The constant rain of sweat causes aluminum and steel bolts to explode with corrosion and rust but frame is still going strong.

I think ultralight steel frames have the best ride but it’s super fragile.

if my Kona raijin 29er ever dies and I can’t find one used I’d order one custom built. Love it and won’t live without it.
 
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#62 ·
I finally got my first Ti frame (Radimus) last April built up slowly thru the summer due to shortages. The geo is fairly modern but not cutting edge which is fine with me. But coming from ROS9 which is probably at the burly edge of steel frames, the Ti ride is a thing even compared to other hardtails I've owned aluminum or steel. Haven't been riding my Riot much either.
 
#63 ·
Two of the bikes I'm currently looking at offer their frames in chromoly and Ti. I was initially set on a Ti frame but the more I think about it I keep asking myself is it worth paying 3x the cost on a frame. Aside from saving 2lbs. is there a huge benefit to a Ti frame. I tell myself I could put the $ into a higher end build but then I go right back to wanting that Ti frame.
Can you help talk me out of it or why I should just go for it.
I'm not a racer and there's not much in the way of climbing where that weight saving would matter.Something about that Ti frame though. Talk some sense into me please.

For reference the bikes are a Stanton Switch9er and a RSD MC.
lmao u want like help line number?
1-800-dont-spend 😋 😂 😇
 
#64 ·
In the end, it is just money. Spend it and then forget about the transaction and ride the hell out of whatever you buy. I had an Aunt that was a school teacher and at her death, had 7 million in the bank (In 1972). Still had a gas stove that had no pilot light, just a bunch of matches and holes in expensive rugs. She gave most of it to a Foreign Government. Moral of story…..if you got it, use it as a tool and buy what you want or need…..if you can afford it…..ride on…..
 
#65 ·
No matter the frame material unless you can test ride back to back with the same wheels/tires it'll be a gamble. One Ti frame to the next or one steel to another etc may ride completely different. One other thing different on the Radimus also bought a Nobl carbon t38 wheelset onyx classic but double butted, normally I build my own wheels straight 14 gauge. Might add some compliance. Though in the past had factory bikes almost always machine built straight 15gauge, stiff but spoke heads would start popping off after a year typically.
 
#66 ·
Yep. My Ti frame rides like velvet, but when I start giving it the onion it gets whippy in the rear. If I rail a hero dirt corner I can make the rear rotor rub, and I have to Bubba-tight the rear axle to eliminate creaking and prevent it from starting to back out on long rides. With the rear wheel out, I can squeeze or spread the dropouts a lot very easily with one hand. But that ride, bro... My Nimble 9, with its tiny little pinner steel tubing, didn't really flex at all. I've also ridden Ti frames that are very stiff, for example the Lynskey Pro 29 posted previously. All different and there is no free lunch.
 
#9 ·
Whether a Ti bike is "worth it" is something only you can answer. I tend to think the potential benefits are too nebulous to quantify.

That said, the way I see it, I'd personally rather build a steel frame and sink my money into a good fork, brakes etc. For the same money, I'll bet you could have a nicer build on a steel bike and be pretty competitive with a ti bike weight wise...

Sure Ti won't rust, but given even half-assed attention to basic maintenance, you are more likely to break a steel frame long before rust becomes an issue.
 
#11 · (Edited)
Whether a Ti bike is "worth it" is something only you can answer. I tend to think the potential benefits are too nebulous to quantify.

That said, the way I see it, I'd personally rather build a steel frame and sink my money into a good fork, brakes etc. For the same money, I'll bet you could have a nicer build on a steel bike and be pretty competitive with a ti bike weight wise...

Sure Ti won't rust, but given even half-assed attention to basic maintenance, you are more likely to break a steel frame long before rust becomes an issue.
I coated the inside of all my steel frames with this.
Liquid Fluid Drink Tin Material property

I’m sure I didn’t need to.

IMHO, worrying about rust on a steel frame is tantamount to chasing ghosts. He11, my winter daily commuter is a steel framed Unit. Canadian, salt filled winters.

…sliding dropouts on my Honzo and Unit too…

PS - I’m all for a ti frame. I’m just trying to talk the OP of it, like he asked 🙂

I honestly don’t have much artillery. Trying to make the most of what little I got 😜

OP - go for it. Like others have said, life is short. If biking is your passion, and no loved ones will go hungry, then feed it.
 
#30 ·
Owning a steel MiddleChild, I drove an aluminum v1 MC, with a slightly better build. I had more fun on the aluminum, that said I love how steel looks and you can't go wrong. If you have the extra money to spend on Titainum... sure have yourself a splurge. But I don't think the difference is huge, that said I haven't ridden the titanium.
 
#17 ·
Two of the bikes I'm currently looking at offer their frames in chromoly and Ti. I was initially set on a Ti frame but the more I think about it I keep asking myself is it worth paying 3x the cost on a frame. Aside from saving 2lbs. is there a huge benefit to a Ti frame. I tell myself I could put the $ into a higher end build but then I go right back to wanting that Ti frame.
Can you help talk me out of it or why I should just go for it.
I'm not a racer and there's not much in the way of climbing where that weight saving would matter.Something about that Ti frame though. Talk some sense into me please.

For reference the bikes are a Stanton Switch9er and a RSD MC.
 
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