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Gnarbar
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Can someone please explain the difference between the Knolly rear suspension design, setup, and function, versus a basic Kona-style 4-Bar setup ?

I'm a technical retard :rolleyes: so any explanations and benefits of the Knolly version will be really helpful.

Thanks in advance guys.
 

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ಠ_ಠ
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The Four by 4 Linkage is our unique and patent pending secondary four bar linkage designed to alleviate many common issues with current full suspension frames.
The Solution : Knolly's patent pending Four by 4 Linkage:

The Four by 4 Linkage came out of our design goals to design a frame that had the pedaling, braking and handling characteristics that we wanted, while at the same time eliminating the annoyances that bugged us with current frame designs.
The Four by 4 Linkage isn't just a secondary four bar linkage - it is a formula on how to design and build a full suspension frame that incorporates rear wheel path, seat tube placement, shock placement, seat clearance (for those technical moves), rear end lateral rigidity, climbing geometry and other aspects into a frame's design.
Benefits:

The Four by 4 Linkage allows us the freedom to solve these problems:
  • Stand over height and continuous seat tube: by keeping longer stroke shocks "horizontal", we can keep the top tube height low. By using a continuous seat tube with a fully adjustable seat post, when the seat is completely lowered a rider can straddle the seat comfortably (for additional information, see our section on small riders).
  • Seat position: When the seat is extended in a climbing position, the lay-back seat tube intersects the location of a normal 72 or 73 degree seat tube angle, ensuring proper climbing geometry. When lowered, the seat is slightly more forwards giving more room for rear tire clearance as well as making it easier to get behind the saddle when riding technical terrain.
  • Rear shock and leverage ratios: by keeping the shock roughly "horizontal" on our longer travel frames, long stroke shocks can be used, ensuring our leverage ratios are well below 3:1. Lower leverage ratios increase shock sensitivity, bottom out resistance and reliability. The secondary linkage also isolates the shock from side loading and places it in a location free from tire roost, further increasing its reliability.
  • Rear shock accessibility: having the rear shock accessible in the front triangle means that it's quick to adjust, tune, maintain and remove the rear shock.
  • High lateral rigidity: by keeping all wheel path suspension components at the back of the frame (i.e. not being forced to bring pivots forward of the seat tube), we can keep linkage elements as short as possible, increasing their lateral rigidity.
  • Tire clearance: by using our lay back seat tube design so that tires won't hit the back of the seat tube (or bottom of the seat) when under full compression, our frames feature excellent tire clearance.
  • Neutral braking: Knolly frames are active under braking forces ensuring maximum traction in difficult sections
  • Neutral pedaling: our wheel paths are tailored so that our frames have efficient pedaling characteristics. While a V-tach will never climb like a lightweight XC bike, you CAN pedal it to the top of your favourite trail.
  • Minimal chain growth ensures that our frames are free from annoying pedal feed back.
 

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Bike to the Bone...
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Freeride777 said:
Can someone please explain the difference between the Knolly rear suspension design, setup, and function, versus a basic Kona-style 4-Bar setup ?

I'm a technical retard :rolleyes: so any explanations and benefits of the Knolly version will be really helpful.

Thanks in advance guys.
Okay, this coming from another tech retard, but this is how I see the 4x4 by what I've read. I'm still waiting for my Endorphin... it looks like it will be a pretty nice bike.

The 4x4 is how the rear stuff was designed on the Knollys, and it includes, as I see it, several things.

1. What is (or close to) a horst link at the rear, which would make the suspension work pretty good, either braking or peddaling.

2. It sort of have two rockers. The first rocker is to give the frame rigidity and is what takes the lateral hits. This would make the rear to 'behave' well on the rear wheel path and such. But the other rocker helps in the leverage of the suspension, meaning how plush or harsh it will be. If you're a clyde, you have a nice leverage ratio because of this. Also, this second rocker doesn't put the lateral forces on the shock, because those forces are taken on the first rocker.

3. The weird seat tube. By moving the seat tube forward the BB and making it slacker they gain several things.

3.1 Straight seat post.
3.2 As I understand it, they can use shorter chainstays and seatstays with the same geometry, which would make it more stiff at the rear.
3.3 When you lower the seat, you have more space to manouver.
 

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Don't forget the implementation, because if that's done poorly, the design won't matter.

This is one of the main reasons my 6.6 is a fading memory and I'm now riding an Endorphin.
 

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Mrwhlr Post A Pic

Jesse, I haven't seen you since you joined the Knolly camp... I suspect since I've traded my evening rides on the local stuff for early mornings jaunts we are just not crossing paths.

Why don't you post a pic. I assume you just moved the stuff over from the Quasi. Which rear shock did you get? I've noticed a very different feel with the different rear shocks. I would be interested to hear your thoughts on what your using
HoJo
 

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HoJo said:
Jesse, I haven't seen you since you joined the Knolly camp... I suspect since I've traded my evening rides on the local stuff for early mornings jaunts we are just not crossing paths.

Why don't you post a pic. I assume you just moved the stuff over from the Quasi. Which rear shock did you get? I've noticed a very different feel with the different rear shocks. I would be interested to hear your thoughts on what your using
HoJo
My morning starts at around 9:30 am!

:D

I'm running the Roco TST-R - not screwing around if I'm already on a heavier bike (but I get a free 1/2 lb due to not carrying around my shock pump :)) The coil goes very, very, well with the bike's leverage. My thinking about suspension is that it should move, so I set up as soft as I can get away with.
 

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rzozaya1969 said:
Okay, this coming from another tech retard, but this is how I see the 4x4 by what I've read. I'm still waiting for my Endorphin... it looks like it will be a pretty nice bike.

The 4x4 is how the rear stuff was designed on the Knollys, and it includes, as I see it, several things.

1. What is (or close to) a horst link at the rear, which would make the suspension work pretty good, either braking or peddaling.

2. It sort of have two rockers. The first rocker is to give the frame rigidity and is what takes the lateral hits. This would make the rear to 'behave' well on the rear wheel path and such. But the other rocker helps in the leverage of the suspension, meaning how plush or harsh it will be. If you're a clyde, you have a nice leverage ratio because of this. Also, this second rocker doesn't put the lateral forces on the shock, because those forces are taken on the first rocker.

3. The weird seat tube. By moving the seat tube forward the BB and making it slacker they gain several things.

3.1 Straight seat post.
3.2 As I understand it, they can use shorter chainstays and seatstays with the same geometry, which would make it more stiff at the rear.
3.3 When you lower the seat, you have more space to manouver.
Also notice how moving the seat tube forward makes a lot of extra room for the pivots.
Look how wide the pivots are on the swingarm and rocker assemblies. Another reason this thing is so friggin stiff.:eekster:
 

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HoJo said:
Jesse, I haven't seen you since you joined the Knolly camp... I suspect since I've traded my evening rides on the local stuff for early mornings jaunts we are just not crossing paths.

Why don't you post a pic. I assume you just moved the stuff over from the Quasi. Which rear shock did you get? I've noticed a very different feel with the different rear shocks. I would be interested to hear your thoughts on what your using
HoJo
Here's a couple from the other day. Jesse's rippin it up on that new rig.


 

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Bizarro said:
nice bike ya got there Wheeler....I see Matt is enjoying his new cam.
It's so blurry, it could still be my Quasi - I think Matt's just having a bit of fun with hojo. Now, the pic I took of Matt, that one is crystal clear! :D
 

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The big question for me is how does it compare to other horst link designs like the
Chumba XCL which I currently ride. When doing really steep grueling ring climbs
on this bike I am a bit underimpressed by the amount of energy sapping bob that
it has. The frame weights between the endorphin and the XCL are similar from what I understand.
So it would be nice to have a bike that has the positive characteristics of the a horst link suspension without so much bob, or without having to rely exclusively on platform damping to control it. At this point I don't see any reason to believe
that the Endorphin would be a major improvement over the XCL in this category,
although the suspension might have a nicer feel to it overall. Would like to demo one to find out, though :thumbsup:
 

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le_buzz said:
The big question for me is how does it compare to other horst link designs like the
Chumba XCL which I currently ride. When doing really steep grueling ring climbs
on this bike I am a bit underimpressed by the amount of energy sapping bob that
it has. The frame weights between the endorphin and the XCL are similar from what I understand.
So it would be nice to have a bike that has the positive characteristics of the a horst link suspension without so much bob, or without having to rely exclusively on platform damping to control it. At this point I don't see any reason to believe
that the Endorphin would be a major improvement over the XCL in this category
,
although the suspension might have a nicer feel to it overall. Would like to demo one to find out, though :thumbsup:
Endorphin with coil spring/no platform climbs better than my Quasi with platform/air shock. However, when you point it downhill, it's at another level entirely.
 

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Trophy Husband
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le_buzz said:
The big question for me is how does it compare to other horst link designs like the
Chumba XCL which I currently ride. When doing really steep grueling ring climbs
on this bike I am a bit underimpressed by the amount of energy sapping bob that
it has. The frame weights between the endorphin and the XCL are similar from what I understand.
So it would be nice to have a bike that has the positive characteristics of the a horst link suspension without so much bob, or without having to rely exclusively on platform damping to control it. At this point I don't see any reason to believe
that the Endorphin would be a major improvement over the XCL in this category,
although the suspension might have a nicer feel to it overall. Would like to demo one to find out, though :thumbsup:
FWIW, my XCL did not bob...even with propedal completely turned off.
 

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Trophy Husband
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dulyebr said:
i read that geolover uses a perfectly round pedal stroke, so...
If by perfectly round you mean "slow and labored", then yes, it is perfectly round.

le buzz, I used the dhx air...and by used I mean I don't have the bike anymore. I really enjoyed it, but I sold it to buy a DH bike....Transition Blindside...which sucked....so I bought a IH Sunday...which broke my hand and caused me to miss riding this summer....but, I digress.

The dhx air is a tricky bugger. I still have one for my Titus Supermoto. I don't feel it "bobs" on that bike either, but I think suspension should move. I like an active rear-end...kinda like a cracked-out supermodel on the cat walk. Mmmmm, jiggly. Anyhoo, I didn't notice any bob on the XCL...really nice bike. Hard to beat for the price. I hope to own another someday.

Damn fine thread hijack we got going here :thumbsup: .
 

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geolover said:
I used the dhx air...and by used I mean I don't have the bike anymore. I really enjoyed it, but I sold it to buy a DH bike....Transition Blindside...which sucked....so I bought a IH Sunday...which broke my hand and caused me to miss riding this summer....but, I digress.
Wow, I must've missed that whole saga. So are you dreaming about a V-tach for next season too, or is that just me. ;)
The dhx air is a tricky bugger. I still have one for my Titus Supermoto. I don't feel it "bobs" on that bike either, but I think suspension should move.
The DHX Air on my Enduro sucks. Or maybe the Enduro just sucks. Bobbing, wallowing, etc. when on flats and techy climbing. Fiddling with the pro-pedal and rebound has helped, but it's way worse than the Pushed Vanilla RC that I had on my RFX. FWIW, the DHX Air behaved much better on the Supermoto that I demo'd, so it may just be the bike and not the shock.

I'd be curious (very, very curious) to see how the DHX Air is on an Endorphin, given that the E is so close in travel and intended-use to what I've got.
Damn fine thread hijack we got going here :thumbsup: .
Somewhat back on topic...

OP: I haven't ridden a Knolly (yet), but the "4-bar" bikes that I've ridden (Turner, Specialized and Titus) have all felt and performed differently, even though they all have the Horst link. It seems like the Knolly 4x4 linkage provides the ability for the suspension to be tuned to a finer degree than most other designs. The description from Speedgoat is pretty informative:
Speedgoat.com said:
What's up with the extra suspension?

This is the question we hear most often about Knolly bikes, and it's a valid one. The traditional four-bar design is well-proven, but why the second driven rocker? Knolly's 4x4 double-linkage evolved out of necessity, not some marketing concept. The problem with many suspension systems is that when you get the axle path you want--something that's instantly reactive to the smaller hits, doesn't exhibit any pedal-kickback or adverse braking effects, and doesn't blow through all of its travel--you end up sacrificing optimal leverage ratios at the shock. In separating the two characteristic behaviors, Knolly effectively lets you have your cake and eat it too.

In separately tuning both the axle path of the 4x4 system, and the leverage ratio at the shock, Knolly has developed bikes that react instantaneously to even the slightest of bump forces without suffering from that "wallowing" feel common with so many longer travel bikes. These bikes climb unbelievably well, and both the Delirium-T and the V-Tach show the influence of their North Shore breeding when it comes to design and handling. Like most Canadian freeride companies, Knolly is based out of Vancouver, British Columbia, where a freeride bike needs more than just long-travel to get the job done. Knolly bikes feature uninterrupted seat tubes, allowing saddle height adjustment. No matter how many times we ride a Knolly, we're still amazed by how quick and nimble these bikes are. And this handling advantage can be directly traced back to the 4x4 suspension system.

Over the years we've come to know British Columbia as the pinnacle of the freeride movement. The area is full of pioneers both on and off the bike. The North Shore has not only spawned its own style of riding but also helped to develop some of the best riders, trail builders and bike designers in the world. As a company, Knolly has managed to blend the down-to-earth attitude of the heart of freeride with an increasingly rare obsession with perfection.

With incredible attention to detail, Noel and Knolly Bikes have managed to form mere metal into some of the best riding works of art the North Shore has ever offered. This attention to detail is evident in every aspect of the frame from start to finish, and you can feel this in the ride as well. Engineering to paint, these frames are designed to be ridden and to be ridden to their fullest potential.

Obsessed with perfection, Knolly isn't looking to create a bike for every segment of the market, and they refuse to cut corners to rush a bike to market. The V-Tach and Delirium-T were perfected over countless hours of design and testing. This obsession with perfection is something you can feel at the pedals the minute you step on a Knolly. These are arguably the best-handling bikes in their class.
Also, there are some good posts by Noel in this thread, where I flaunt my ignorance and he patiently answers my questions.
 

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PCinSC said:
I'd be curious (very, very curious) to see how the DHX Air is on an Endorphin, given that the E is so close in travel and intended-use to what I've got.

PC,

The Endorphin will feel different depending on the model of DHX. The 07' feels great to me. The 08' DHX has a lot more platform damping even with all the settings on minimum, and is too stiff for a small guy like myself who likes an active rear suspension. I prefer a non platform shock on the Endorphin. I'm currently running a ROCO coil with ti spring and it feels fantastic.
 
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