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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Thought I'd start a thread and ask about the pivot shafts being too long and the option of having shims or shaving. Info at All Hail the CZAR - Page 2

Does this affect XL size frames only?
Other than the XX1 clunking many Czar riders are experiencing how do we know specifically if it's a frame issue and not a rear derailleur headache so many deal with?

Thanks in advance.
 

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Westin, I was definitely getting significant creaking and popping in the DW pivots. I didn't verify with Turner if this is a XL only issue. If you personally want to verify if your frame has this issue it's as simple as pulling the two DW pivot bolts, dropping the DW linkage, removing the two pivot shafts and then measuring, using a pair of calipers, the width of the shafts vs. the width of each of the two DW pivots from outside of bushing to outside of bushing. If your shafts are wider than the pivots you're more than likely getting some significant creaking from the DW pivot which can be solved by installing the Turner supplied shims behind the bushings or shaving the width of the shafts until they're narrower than the pivots. It took me less than 30 min to do all of the above and reassemble everything. Hope this helps clarifies the issue.
 

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Thanks for the info. My large-size Czar has XX1, also, and it was making klunking creaking grinding noises. Spent way too much time going over every possible option. The S Works crank, the rear D, the freehub, etc.

Turns out it was NOT the XX1 nor the DW Link width issue.

My Czar came with a loose lower shock pivot bolt. Obviously a new or used bike/frame/anything should have a once-over, the due diligence and being proactive instead of putting all the blame in the original owner or manufacturer's hands. The loose bottom shock bolt was an easy fix but the 2 or 3 short rides drove me crazy blaming the XX1.

But it would have been nice taking ownership of a near-$3000 frame that had tight and properly sized linkage and bolts.
 

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I've been meaning to double check all the bolts. Anyone know off hand what size the torx bolts are? I have to pick up some decent bits and wrenches.
 

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I got my T55 from the NAPA auto parts store, after going through the same treasure hunt as Crash.
 

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I would recommend those of you who have not yet grinded down the axles to wait until a better solution appears. Both solutions, shims and grinding, will change the way the hinge works (into a less good one), but the nice thing about shims is that they can be removed again.

The source of the sound is play between the bolts and the steel cylinder which sits in the frame. The only good fix is new cylinders where the hole is smaller or using a "kem lock" product like the one from locktite (I am not sure this is the name since I used a Danish brand). The latter is a liquid which you put in before the bolt. It fills out the "play" and hardens up like a glue.

I have spend a lot of time finding out the problem and I have done the kem lock trick to make it work. Now I am just hoping to get some cylinders with the right hole diameter.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Found this info. May help:

1) Loctite 609 is described as "Retaining Compound - General Purpose". It's low viscosity, and it's ideal for gaps up to .005". It fixtures (cures?) in 10 min, and fully fixtures in 24 hours. After which, it has a sheer strength of 3000 psi, and is good up to 300 deg F. The equivalent product from Permatex appears to be: "Permatex Bearing Mount for Close Fits", p/n 60940.

2) Loctite 680 is described as "Retaining Compound - High Strength/High Viscosity". It's ideal for gaps up to .015". It fixtures in 10 minutes, and has a sheer strength of 4000 psi, and is good up to 300 deg F. The equivalent Permatex product appears to be: "Permatex Bearing Mount for Relaxed Fits", p/n 68040.

3) Permatex High Strength Sleeve Retainer, has a Permatex part number of 64000 or 64040 depending on the size of the bottle, and is equivalent to Loctite 640. It fixtures in 1 hour, and fully fixtures in 24 hours. It's good for gaps up to .007", has a sheer strength of 3000 psi, and is good up to 400 deg F.
 

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In my case it was a difference of 0.3 mm between the diameter of the bolts and steel cylinder hole that made all the trouble. Note that it is not the same locktite you put on the threads of bolts to secure them. The product I used was a Danish branded one and is used to secure axles and bearings.
 

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In my case it was a difference of 0.3 mm between the diameter of the bolts and steel cylinder hole that made all the trouble. Note that it is not the same locktite you put on the threads of bolts to secure them. The product I used was a Danish branded one and is used to secure axles and bearings.
Right, so is everybody sure they will be able to remove the bolts after letting this kind of material cure (without a blowtorch, that is)? Maybe DT will weigh in on this idea.

If the bolt/pivot axle gap is excessive, a couple coats of high quality spray paint will take care of that, AND allow you to remove the bolts pretty easily in the future.

If the pivot axle is a bit too long, shimming the inserts or shortening the pivot axles will take care of that.

There is NO downside to taking either or both of these measures. As long as you don't over-shorten the pivot axle, you will not affect the way the pivot functions. Remember the old high school shop saying of "I cut it twice, and it was still too short"!

In my case, the culprit was definitely the shaft length, not the bolt/pivot axle gap, and I have ridden in silence since June of last year, after shortening them.
 

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In my case, the culprit was definitely the shaft length, not the bolt/pivot axle gap, and I have ridden in silence since June of last year, after shortening them.
Like Kosmo, my issue was definitely the shaft length. I only have a handful of rides since shaving the shafts and it's been dead silent ever since.
 

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Right, so is everybody sure they will be able to remove the bolts after letting this kind of material cure (without a blowtorch, that is)? Maybe DT will weigh in on this idea.

If the bolt/pivot axle gap is excessive, a couple coats of high quality spray paint will take care of that, AND allow you to remove the bolts pretty easily in the future.

If the pivot axle is a bit too long, shimming the inserts or shortening the pivot axles will take care of that.

There is NO downside to taking either or both of these measures. As long as you don't over-shorten the pivot axle, you will not affect the way the pivot functions. Remember the old high school shop saying of "I cut it twice, and it was still too short"!

In my case, the culprit was definitely the shaft length, not the bolt/pivot axle gap, and I have ridden in silence since June of last year, after shortening them.
I just checked if they were easy to remove and they were. The product is not a glue that gets stuck. It just fills out the gap. Your suggestion about using paint seems like an easy accessible solution, however the problem about that is that the hole in the aluminium rocker arm is a tight fit so you will not get the bolt past this if you paint it.

If the reason for the creaking and knocking sounds on your frame is the same as on mine (and my two friends who also have a Czar) which is play between bolt and steel cylinder, grinding down the cylinder will never fix that problem with play. The sound may be reduced since it is teflon on aluminium instead of steel on aluminium, but I believe it is treatment of symptoms and not the cause/real problem.

The problem about grinding is that you introduce sideways load on the teflon bushing, which it is not designed for, instead of getting the loads into the cylinder.

Here is my interpretation about what is causing the sounds (bear in mind that I do not know the details of what I cannot see from outside :) ):
image.png
 

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I'm not sure I understand how this design is intended to work... Unlike the "hex-lock" design of the other Turner DW bikes, where the DW-link inserts into the axles via the hex-locks, the Czar pivots are just bolted together. It seems this would turn the bolt into the axle, rather than the larger diameter axle shaft... It doesn't seem there is a significant mechanical connection between the DW-Link & the axle shaft.
 

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I'm not sure I understand how this design is intended to work... Unlike the "hex-lock" design of the other Turner DW bikes, where the DW-link inserts into the axles via the hex-locks, the Czar pivots are just bolted together. It seems this would turn the bolt into the axle, rather than the larger diameter axle shaft... It doesn't seem there is a significant mechanical connection between the DW-Link & the axle shaft.
There is lubrication between the steel cylinder and the teflon it is mounted in. Therefore I think the cylinder is meant to rotate in the frame. I think the bolt should functioning as a shear pin and making sure (from tensioning the bolt) that the rocker arm is connected via friction to the steel cylinder.
 
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