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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
First, the Korean pics are super cool !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thinking about a complete XTR group for a Flux. LBS owner informed me that the Current group, 3rd generation XTR (dual control) , is not XC bomb Proof like the 2nd generation (pre-dual control) was. And that riders have experienced considerable failures to merit the group fragile. Granted, my riding buddies and I are antique with antique bikes, but people that I have encourated with new XTR seamt to love it.


Turner riders using XTR components, Has your components fail pre-maturely?
 

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Mr.Secret
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XTR fragile ?

kforum said:
First, the Korean pics are super cool !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thinking about a complete XTR group for a Flux. LBS owner informed me that the Current group, 3rd generation XTR (dual control) , is not XC bomb Proof like the 2nd generation (pre-dual control) was. And that riders have experienced considerable failures to merit the group fragile. Granted, my riding buddies and I are antique with antique bikes, but people that I have encourated with new XTR seamt to love it.

Turner riders using XTR components, Has your components fail pre-maturely?
Unless you positively haf' to have XTR, I'd try Sram XO, very durable. You could mate that to an XTR crankset & frt. der. Or Race Face Deus w x9 frt. der. Very nice combo.......
 

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Natl. Champ DH Poser/Hack
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nuthin wrong with my x 9 and the xo is told to be only better, much better. however i run xtr on my flux so i say this. hate the new sti levers but not for the standard reasons. im sure i could get used to the new style just as i adapted to road sti back in the day. my personal issue is the front lever throw is far to long for me to use comfortably and ive tried. could be my small hands and busted up body. things dont move like they should all the time now.

so i use the old 9 spd xtr triggers and 960 everywhere else. love the performance more than anything else ive tried thus far and not by a little. my only gripe is the rings wear kinda fast but so far shimano america corperation (SAC... damn thats funny to me) warranties them for me. the front der is the best ive ever used and cures the last of the bike bits that needed a tweek. perfection! even on 952 rings so its not the new rings, its the der. its also a bit cheaper. no probs with fragility, if thats a word.
 

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Elitest thrill junkie
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You can see that the first poster is satisfied with his purchase, but "buy sram" doesn't tell you anything about the question you asked, which was "what is the durability of XTR?".

As a shop mechanic over the better part of the preceeding year, I never saw it one way or another, although there seem to be more options to replace parts as they wear or break with shimano derailers and shifters, especially with the high end stuff. I have traditionally seen sram derailers break in certain areas, and the new X-series stuff doesn't seem to be any different in this regard.

The other thing to consider is that shimano has rapid fire shifters from 10 years ago that work fine today. Long term durability with the sram rapid fire shifters is a question mark. The shimano ones have metal detents that do not really wear over time, hopefully sram copied this from shimano instead of using plastic parts like the gripshifter models. Shimano has been making stuff like this for many years, and I'd expect their shifters, dual control or otherwise, to last a long time just as the older shimano shifters due. SRAM doesn't have a good track record in this area, as the pastic parts of the grip shifters simply wear out over time. The new sram rapid-fire shifters may be different, but they have a long way to go before they approach the lifetime of the similer shimano sets that have been out for more than a decade.
 

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Natl. Champ DH Poser/Hack
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kforum - no probs with the newer 960 series xtr or more popular xt in my shop as of yet besides the adventure racers killin every part they use in quadruply less time a bulldozer can. sorry if i got into my own thing a bit too much.

classic jm... he hasnt made his "comfortable purchase" yet. damn man, yer startin to miss the point and/or facts as much as i do so back the hell ouuta my turf! hehe. and thanx for the history lesson and assumptions on sram vs shimano. im sure that clears everything up for him.
 

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Elitest thrill junkie
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cactuscorn said:
classic jm... he hasnt made his "comfortable purchase" yet. damn man, yer startin to miss the point and/or facts as much as i do so back the hell ouuta my turf! hehe. and thanx for the history lesson and assumptions on sram vs shimano. im sure that clears everything up for him.
Show me the assumptions.

It was based on experience, my own.

Sorry.
 

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Natl. Champ DH Poser/Hack
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Jayem said:
Show me the assumptions.

It was based on experience, my own.

Sorry.
for what, less than a year as you stated? oh please j. at least i know and admit when im in over my head. and if ya cant see the long list of assumptions then i cant help ya further. hes here askin for our help so give the guy a break will ya?

carry on kforum. alls well in xtrland specially on a flux.
 

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Elitest thrill junkie
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cactuscorn said:
for what, less than a year as you stated? oh please j. at least i know and admit when im in over my head. and if ya cant see the long list of assumptions then i cant help ya further. hes here askin for our help so give the guy a break will ya?

carry on kforum. alls well in xtrland specially on a flux.
No, not less than a year, that just means that for the prior year, I was working at the shop most of the time. I worked there for more than that. Understanding english is key here.

That's not an "assumption", I asked for an "assumption". I made lots of comments obviously, but you seem to be shooting blanks here. My experience with shimano XTR shifters and components is not an assumption. My experience with SRAM components and shifters is also not an assumption. I'm sorry if you don't understand what the words mean.

I'll add some more usefull info;

For the most part, I'd say that XTR is as durable as XT or other groups, and easily as durable as anything that SRAM puts out. The XTR cranks tend to be a little fliexier than the XTs, and they are basically somewhat smaller with less material. The XTs are wider and with a bigger structure, stiffer. The XTRs are lighter though, and slightly more flexy doesn't mean it's less strong.

It also seems though that the focus of the new XTR cranks is XC, whereas the old shimano XT cranks M950-series were suitable for DH with the DH ring setup. If you're usage is going to be XC or trail riding, you'll probably be fine.

The front derailer is great, as stated before, and has "trickled down" through the shimano lines, the XTR one is still the lightest, and doesn't sacrifice any strength.

I'd say the XTR rear derailer is more durable than the Sram XO or X9, based on the repairs and work that I've done on them. They are also more rebuildable with parts available from shimano.

As I said, the shifters are new, but I'd go to the track records. Dual control is not my thing, but I wouldn't be worried about durability. The long term durability of X-series shifters remains to be seen in any case.

My favorite part of the group is the chain, the CN7701 xtr/dura ace. I always use these, and love them due to their extreme strength. The specially shaped pins keep the links from sliding off under extreme tension, and I have yet to break one from extreme torque, and i torque the heck out of chains. Old generation shimano chains were pretty crappy. Sachs (aka sram) chains were much better, but these new generation shimano chains surpass the old sachs chains that were rebadged as sram's own product.

The 959 pedals are loved by many. I've seen them on plenty of bikes, but never had to do anything to them. I don't use em, but I wouldn't have any qualms about using them. Much improved over the older generation SPDs IMO.

The hubs are kind of suprising. You don't see too many people using them due to the centerlock thing, but they are now comparable to CK hubs for weight. I've never had any problems with shimano hubs for durability or reliability. Get them adjusted correctly and they go forever when you occasionally change the grease. Most people that complain about them in the shop rode them around loose or tried to do some sort of self repair with vice grips or something. Then they damaged cones or races and then blamed the hubs. I rarely see problems with their hubs, and now that there is a light XTR disc model, they've seem to finally come around, although there always seems to be one thing that they don't get right, and for some people that is the "centerlock" part of it.

The brakes are good. Best ever? Not in my opinion. Worth of the rest of the components? I suppose, but there's just a lot of other good brake systems out there these days, so they don't seem to exactly shine comparitively.
 

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Gold it's the new Pink!
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kforum said:
First, the Korean pics are super cool !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thinking about a complete XTR group for a Flux. LBS owner informed me that the Current group, 3rd generation XTR (dual control) , is not XC bomb Proof like the 2nd generation (pre-dual control) was. And that riders have experienced considerable failures to merit the group fragile. Granted, my riding buddies and I are antique with antique bikes, but people that I have encourated with new XTR seamt to love it.

Turner riders using XTR components, Has your components fail pre-maturely?
Compared to years past xtr stuff is now more fragile. It seems Shimano went full on cross country race with Xtr. Where in years past you would also find xtr cranks and other stuff on downhill bikes. Now the High tech plus durability now shifted more to Xt.

On the current stuff. Dual Control Suck, & I personally hate the new reverse derailures (rev. der.). I personally feel the only reason the rev. der. came to be, was so the dual controls could function better. Dual control with a rev. der. feels closer to functioning properly. Without a rev der the long throw of the downstroke on the Dual Controls is horrible IMHO. The Xtr wheelset is a work of art but also it is new technology with stiff rims and low spoke count. The cranks are nicely made with great weight vs strength ratio. However the chain rings wear out quickly and replacements are super expensive. Then add the odd bolt pattern. I don't know a lot on the hydro brakes, but I have heard good things.

I have had great luck with current Xtr stuff like: chain, cassette older trigger shifter and older 952 rear der.

I like my Xtr cranks but.........
 

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Never enough time to ride
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Not sure if I want to jump into this one, but here goes.

Been wrenching on the bikes of a few racers in the local area for the last 6 years or so, either on my own time or out of a shop, all of them using XTR, and most recently the newer stuff. Haven't seen any problems with the new stuff, though the rear derailleurs seem to have a bit more slop than the older ones, but it hasn't seemed to effect shifting performance much. The new front derailleur is a work of art, shifts are nice and clean and the pivots are tight. No experience currently with the new cranks, though if you can find a set of the older 952's you can't go wrong.

Now understand I'm a SRAM user, but would happily switch to Shimano if it were the only thing I could get, and as long as I could get RapidFire shifters and a standard rear derailleur. I have my own reasons for not liking the STI shifters.

My out look on SRAM is the X.0 is probably one of the toughest derailleurs I've used having literally slammed it into rocks and the pavement repeatedly, and only removing some metal from the outer parallelogram and bending the der hanger. The X-Gen front der, is comparable to but not quite equal to the performance of the XTR. It is certainly heavier, but it's rock freaking solid. And for the record, there aren't any plastic bits in my X.9 shifters that I have noticed while changing cables, and the shift mechanism itself is much simpler than shimano's, but the stupid cable plugs are kinda lame.

Having used and worked on both systems pretty extensively, my honest opinion is you really can't go wrong either way. Pick yer kit and go with it, you won't be disappointed either way.

happy trails...

squish
 

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Natl. Champ DH Poser/Hack
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good point crimson. i too would have to say the 952 and older xtr was indeed more burley and the 960 series is made to be lighter and more x/c'ish but thats always been where it was designed to be. it was just a bonus that the cranks and such were tough enough for d/h. matter of fact my 952 cranks now live on my rfx. 960 isnt made to be crashed but no xtr was, really. and the b/c is indeed stupid and expensive but thats also what cut the grams. another one of those cursed trade offs. as i see it, xt has been the bigger more aggressive brother for the better part of 6 years and is only getting more time in the gym and bigger doses of steroids as time goes on.

heres where i seem to differ with the masses. i dig the rapid rise rears on anything sprung. the ability for my sorry, weak ass to downshift under power on a climb is nuthin short of a life saver! and when i crest its a sweet (up to) 3 gear sweep into a higher gear as i blast back down the other side. now, on a h/t, they blow. any hit of substance sends the reverse sprung der down the cogs into a higher gear, then auto shifts it back in place. can you say busted chains? my time on and my time with custys xtr/dura ace chains over the past 13 years is one of great performance but short lifespan, therefore the same limited wear life of the geared bits so i go with and reccomend sedis, now sram chains. i do see a improvement here lately but im still not sold. oh, and low spoke count wheels with paired spokes are kinda old. thanx to rolf Circa 1999 or so for provin us all wrong. these puppies work! i hear of a tale of a xtr wheel bein run over by a car at low speed and livin to tell about it. ask squish for details. i came damn close to gettin a set but opted for somethin with less propriatary bits in it so they still sit in the dislpay.

hope i didnt ruffle any more feathers crimson but i think i may have carried on a bit too much here just the same.
 

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... I guess you won't be
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I'm not convinced, nor will I ever be - I am a brake lever leaner. I ride with my fingers (usually my index finger) draped over the levers. Dual Control shimanos ruin my riding style. You don't see motorcycles with this ridiculous form of brake lever actuated shifting! And for good reason - Its stupid!!!!!

I am sure more than a few of you routinely ride with your fingers "at the ready", and that's just not happenin' w/ dual control.....as long as I can still get xt pods or even xtr pods, I will still use shimano [I love the shimano pods], but when that supply dries up - I'll go SRAM.

and yes, call me archaic, but I am still using and loving my 4-piston XT hydro brakes.....
 

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Never enough time to ride
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That is actually one of the biggest reasons I don't care for the STI shifters, that and I can't feel the clicks that let me know when I've actually made a shift.

happy trails...

squish
 

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jokermtb said:
I'm not convinced, nor will I ever be - I am a brake lever leaner. I ride with my fingers (usually my index finger) draped over the levers. Dual Control shimanos ruin my riding style. You don't see motorcycles with this ridiculous form of brake lever actuated shifting! And for good reason - Its stupid!!!!!

I am sure more than a few of you routinely ride with your fingers "at the ready", and that's just not happenin' w/ dual control.....as long as I can still get xt pods or even xtr pods, I will still use shimano [I love the shimano pods], but when that supply dries up - I'll go SRAM.

and yes, call me archaic, but I am still using and loving my 4-piston XT hydro brakes.....
Stupid? A bit harsh. Maybe for MTB it tough, I agree. But for road cycling there is NOTHING sweeter than dual control. Shimano just effed up by trying to implement a proven design where it doesnt belong. But that doesnt make the design stupid. Just poorly applied.
 

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My cup runneth over
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jokermtb said:
I'm not convinced, nor will I ever be - I am a brake lever leaner. I ride with my fingers (usually my index finger) draped over the levers. Dual Control shimanos ruin my riding style. You don't see motorcycles with this ridiculous form of brake lever actuated shifting! And for good reason - Its stupid!!!!!
QUOTE]
Ummm, Could be I missed your point here, dude, but motorocycles keep your foot free for gear changes... Now that would be tricky on a bike. :)
 

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I don't do PC
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I like Sram and gripshift and feel the system works better than shimano but I also run a full shimano setup up front cause I love the durability/price of the octalink. The XO der. I've been running for less than 2 years now has worked great but I'm a little disappointed in the durability of the pivots. I'm hard on rear der.'s and constantly smack rocks and bend hangers and now 2 of the pivots are missing the little bushings/c-clips. Sram won't send you any and I tried everywhere in town to find these little c-clips but nobody has them in that size. Basicly you have to go thru a shop and the shop can't even buy the parts cause they are not for sale, they have to treat it like a warranty issue to get the little pieces to rebuild the pivots. Kind of a pain IMO, but a good shop will take care of it I guess.

I will not buy another XO der. due to this reason especially since you need to take out a loan to buy one, I will go with the X9 for durability/cost, and since I've been running one on my other MB and it works very nicely.
 

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Registered
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You need to mix both for the best:

Rear derailleur - X0 better than XTR. XTR is good new but slaps around and the springs go slack too quick.

Front Derailleur - XTR - X-Gen from SRAM is solid but looks like a low end part.

Shifters - SRAM X0 - twist or flick options, can use your brake of choice - dual control wobbles around and is expensive in a crash and your tied to Shimano brakes.

Brakes - Avid (SRAM) Juicy 7 Carbon - or also with SRAM your choics of the best from Magura, Hayes or Hope or...

Cranks/BB - new XTR is the best yet - easy to install (not the same for Truvantiv)

Chain - SRAM - but not the hollow pin (the gold link is worth it)

Cassette - XTR - more options than SRAM and better shifts - less noise
 
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