[RED5]

So I have a dilemma and I would like to hear some of your opinions to help me sort this out. I have a choice between 2 new frames, 08 IH 6point6 and 07 Kona Coiler, and I have pros and cons for both. Here is a list of my issues with each,
but I'd be curious to hear your opinions and what frame you'd choose.

IH 6point6

Pros:
150mm x 12mm rear wheel spacing - stronger wheel and stiff rear section.

Stiffer rear end. Shorter linkages and better hardware.

DW-Link

Lower leverage ratio - 2.52


Cons:
Odd shock size - Upgrade will be costly.

Borderline headangle - 67.5?



Kona Coiler

Pros:
66* head angle - Nice a slack, how I like'em.

Common shock size, upgrading made easy.

Decent leverage ratio - 2.67



Cons:
135 x 12mm* wheel spacing - weaker wheel setup when compared to 150mm. *12mm is an upgrade option with the DOPE dropout.

Weak linkage - structurally the long linkage is a weak point and does not offer the best lateral rigidity.

Brake Jack - though not a huge issue is does exist and to rectify requires a $250 upgrade.


So anyway this is where I'm at currently. I haven't really been able to find anything that sells me 100% either way on either
design and I'm thinking maybe someone may post something I hadn't thought about that may push me one way or the other. Thanks.

 

[Hardtails Are Better]

I'm a little confused about your reasoning on the stiffness bit. The IH has a bunch of pivots that are a long way away from the rear wheel, and as such, the chainstay has a lot of leverage on them. In theroy, this seems like it should be less stiff than the Coiler setup, not the other way around.

That said, I wouldn't worry about stiffness on either frame.

Geo wise, I think they both have their pros and cons. I'm a huge fan of short chainstays. Both are longer than I like, but the 6. has shorter ones. Your preferances may vary though. HT wise, If you're really riding AM, I actually think 66 is borderline too slack. I like pretty slack bikes too, but for low speed handling in really tight stuff, and climbing, 66 isn't ideal. The 83mm bb on the IH isn't so much of an issue for me anymore, with options for light cranks, like the Gravity Lite and Middleburns out there. I'm with you on the leverage ratio, shock sizes, etc. It is worth noting that that 6. has a better shock on it, so maybe this is less of a problem- you're not going to be as anxious to upgrade.

I'm not sure if this helped or not, but that's my random thoughts on the two.

 

[All Mountain]

just a thought....

The 6P6 67.5HA is based on zero stack headset....

.... can you get an internal to external headset adaptor to add lower stack height and slacken it out?~?

Does this enduro product work ?~?

 

[RED5]

I'm a little confused about your reasoning on the stiffness bit. The IH has a bunch of pivots that are a long way away from the rear wheel, and as such, the chainstay has a lot of leverage on them. In theroy, this seems like it should be less stiff than the Coiler setup, not the other way around.

That said, I wouldn't worry about stiffness on either frame.

I guess a little more background would have been beneficial. I currnetly have a Kona (06 Dawg) and find the rear end to be a tad flexy, however I've never been worried about that since it's used\designed to be more of an AM\XC rig. I've demo'd a 6point and it's solid, coudl have alot to do with the 150mm x 12mm rear end.

Also the IH uses larger pivot hardware than the Kona, which in theory would help to stiffen
things up a bit.

But overall your probably correct, both of them are probably plenty stiff enough. Thanks for the input I greatly appreciate it. :thumbsup:

 

[TNC]

Red, maybe I missed it, but I didn't see where you specified how you'd use this new bike...more trail, more DH, or what? That might have the biggest bearing on the decision IMO. I was wondering...is the head angle issue something that should also be considered in concert with the wheelbase and/or chainstay length?

 

[RED5]

Red, maybe I missed it, but I didn't see where you specified how you'd use this new bike...more trail, more DH, or what? That might have the biggest bearing on the decision IMO. I was wondering...is the head angle issue something that should also be considered in concert with the wheelbase and/or chainstay length?

Yeah sorry about that I figured since they were both classifed in the same category I could skip that part.
Anyhoo, I would be using it for mainly for AM and if I like the ride, I'll be taking it to Bootleg, Mammoth and Sedona\Moab trips for some AM\DH riding. Basically a do all rig, but for real DH I'll still have my DH rig. Hope this helps.

 

[Clutchman83]

Those are both on the fatass end of AM bikes but if I were to pick one I'd get the 6point6. You do realize that they are more freeride oriented, there are better trail and park oriented bikes out there if you wont be using it for hucking. They'll both work but I don't think I'd use them for an AM/Mini DH bike.

 

[TNC]

I'd go with the IH. I haven't ridden that model, but I'd think it would be a more efficient pedaler than the Kona. On the other hand, I'm not sure of the weight comparison between the two which could change my opinion. The 150mm hub on the IH kinda indicates some really heavy duty use, so maybe the rest of the frame is built fairly heavy. Of the places you mentioned riding, Moab and Sedona will definitely require some pedaling to cover the bases, whereas Mammoth and Bootleg are good shuttle places. Blaaaah!...get a Nomad and slap a 66 on it and ride it anywhere...LOL!

 

[da_eddio]

if your worried about flex in the back end of the your dawg//coiler, you could upgrade the bearings to needle point ones. think xsl_will did it with his coiler and said it made a big difference.

 

[bbtheory]

I recently purchased a Kona Coilair frame from the wheelworld sale and couldn't be happier with the purchase. The frame and rear linkage seem very solid to me, no noticeable flex and braking effects the suspension very little for a bike with 6" of travel. The bike built up to just under 33Lbs. which I am really happy with...

One thing I am not clear on since you are looking at frames to build up is what is the price and weight difference. The 150mm rear end would not be so important to me as a wider axle alone does not mean more stiffness, the right wheels would make a bigger difference I would think. I bring up price because it seems there are some sick Kona deals out there right now (I used a wheelworld 20% off code just before X-mas to get my frame, it was a steal!!!)

 

[danyiluska]

+1 to 6point.

I've test rided the '07 coiler and i didn't like it at all:
-Heavy, that thing is a cow, maybe cool for FR but not for AM.
-I don't like alu 7005, it's so rigid...
-Cheap frame and cheap components.

6point:
-IMO Ironhorse is a great company
-Can built up for AM or FR
-A class higher than the coiler
-DW-link

I'm dreaming of getting one...

 

[da_eddio]

yeah thats another good point, if you get a bolt thru 12mm hub and use a kit like the atomlab 12mm/10mm step down axle, you would have an incredibly stiff rear end.

 

[RED5]

To answer some of the questions...

if your worried about flex in the back end of the your dawg//coiler, you could upgrade the bearings to needle point ones. think xsl_will did it with his coiler and said it made a big difference.

yeah thats another good point, if you get a bolt thru 12mm hub and use a kit like the atomlab 12mm/10mm step down axle, you would have an incredibly stiff rear end.

Hey thanks for the info about the needle bearings, I'll have to do a search. Also with regards to the rear axle, Kona makes 2 different bolt-on 12mm drop out kits for the Coiler-Coilair-Stinky lineup, one you can use to run the DOPE brake system and the other if you just want to run a 135 x 12mm wheelset.

One thing I am not clear on since you are looking at frames to build up is what is the price and weight difference. The 150mm rear end would not be so important to me as a wider axle alone does not mean more stiffness, the right wheels would make a bigger difference I would think.

The weight's are close enough to one another not to be a concern and the prices are within a couple
hundred dollars of one another, so no issue there either. The 150 does make a stronger wheel overall
because there is no dish, so both sides of the wheel use the same length spokes and tension stays even
comapred to a 135 wheel. This is why they say 150 wheels are stronger, which honestly is not really that big of a concern IMO as I've never busted a 135 wheel. I only mentioned it because it does make a difference to some people and so it is something to consider.

A big thanks so far to everyone that's replied, you've been a great help and give me alot to think about.
The reason I'm making such a big deal out of this is because this is going to be a bike I'm going to have
to ride for a few seasons (3-5) and I want to be sure I make the best choice overall.

Oh and TNC, thanks for the recommendation on the Nomad, however it is a bit out of my preferred price range.
However if it were not, it would def be a consideration as would the Turner RFX (boy that would piss off the Homers).

 

[-bb-]

The 6P6 67.5HA is based on zero stack headset....

.... can you get an internal to external headset adaptor to add lower stack height and slacken it out?~?

Does this enduro product work ?~?

YES... you can use an external headset to slacken it out a bit. There are also some external HS that use an extra tall stack height for that purpose, and also to help with some forks that have a tandancy to smack the adjuster knobs on the downtube.

The great thing about the 6pt is that you can also run a 8.75x2.75in shock and get about 6.75in of rear travel (if needed). There are a bunch of people around here (the OC) that have done so.