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Mr.650b - Mr.27-5
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
?????

And just that quick, it's gone!??!?!?

I took a look at 'Ask R.C.' on MBA site this morning...the post from yesterday re: 650b and fork manufacturers is gone. The posts after it are there and a couple of new ones are at the top.

I don't get it. The question was inoffensive.
Maybe it was R.C.'s answer re: Trek v. Specialized - two MBA advertisers - that got it pulled.
Maybe because he pointed out that Gary Fisher using a road wheel size for mountain bikes was not akind to discovering plutonium.

whatever.
 

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Mr.650b - Mr.27-5
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reformed roadie said:
And just that quick, it's gone!??!?!?

I took a look at 'Ask R.C.' on MBA site this morning...the post from yesterday re: 650b and fork manufacturers is gone. The posts after it are there and a couple of new ones are at the top.

I don't get it. The question was inoffensive.
Maybe it was R.C.'s answer re: Trek v. Specialized - two MBA advertisers - that got it pulled.
Maybe because he pointed out that Gary Fisher using a road wheel size for mountain bikes was not akind to discovering plutonium.

whatever.
Saved here forever:

http://www.bikelugs.com/about/index.php?strWebAction=article_detail&intResourceID=90

Who knows, maybe there is some truth to the rumor that Trek is going 650b in 2011? :D

Cheers,

KP
 

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Doesntplaywellwithmorons!
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I was gonna say what's does trek have to do with 29ers... but i guess RC meant since they own GF, because otherwise having a pair of 69er models which have now been discontinued is hardly pushing the size very well. I also don't get RC saying that specialized's marketing department is fighting with trek's to claim they own/invented the 29er size. Specialized is a pretty late arrival to the format in the grand scheme of things. Technically Procycle group up here in the white north under their Oryx brand was doing it well before enough to be compared to GF on the size. They had their Raid series hardtail model as a 29er back in the 2002-2004 period, and then under the Rocky Mountain brand starting with the Hammer in 2008. Now they have three RM models in the size format including the Altitude with 4.5 inches of wheel travel.

And if Trek's embracing 650B its only because Haro in particular beat them to it, and this is worrisome for them because while everyone sees Trek as the other industry giant... but they're not. Maybe in the USA they are but Haro owns another well known brand name (Masi bicycles) which it operates seperately and Haro has a better following and reputation for embracing new technology and trends. Then there's the fact Turner already got onto the wheelsize, Pivot is just waiting for a fork to come along, and Jamis is jumping into it for 2010 among well known yankee brands.

The actual bicycle industry giant right now is the GT/Schwinn/Mongoose/Cannondale monster owned by Dorel Industries, a canadian manufacturing giant. With $2 billion in annual sales... well... let's just say Trek is probably worried who they might buy out next.
 

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Mr.650b - Mr.27-5
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DeeEight said:
I was gonna say what's does trek have to do with 29ers... but i guess RC meant since they own GF, because otherwise having a pair of 69er models which have now been discontinued is hardly pushing the size very well. I also don't get RC saying that specialized's marketing department is fighting with trek's to claim they own/invented the 29er size. Specialized is a pretty late arrival to the format in the grand scheme of things. Technically Procycle group up here in the white north under their Oryx brand was doing it well before enough to be compared to GF on the size. They had their Raid series hardtail model as a 29er back in the 2002-2004 period, and then under the Rocky Mountain brand starting with the Hammer in 2008. Now they have three RM models in the size format including the Altitude with 4.5 inches of wheel travel.
Marketing departments seem to regularly engage in "revisionist history"... It doesn't have to be true, you just have to shout it louder than everybody else.. ;)

In some dispute over who 'invented" the MTB I overheard GF once tell TR that "The one with the biggest marketing budget wins!".

It doesn't really matter to me who gets credit as long as they jump on board the 650 b-wagon.

Cheers,

KP
 

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Reformed Roadie wrote:

>It does not say who posted the
>question, but I have my suspicions.

If you're talking about the "Getting Behind 650B" submission to Ask RC, your suspicions are almost certainly off-base. I submitted it. I'm not an industry player, just a frustrated consumer. I'm a dedicated rider and I'm short. I want a big-wheeled bike to help smooth out the New England trails I ride, which have plenty of large roots and embedded rocks. Along with their other drawbacks, 29ers are not a good fit for my height. I want a Pivot 650B and they're not going to build it for me until one of the major fork makers gets on board. I was hoping Richard Cunningham might give them a little push.

I think it will happen eventually, but in the meantime I'm looking into a Mach 5.

VM
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I knew it was you :smilewinkgrin:

Care to share what Pivot has told you, or are you going by some of the rumors?

I too am not too excited over some of the FS offerings to come out...I hate saying that, since it is progress, but it is the truth. I feel that a 650b Pivot mach 5 (or 4) would be a great application for the wheel size.

It is unfortunate that most DW-link, VPP, or maestro type suspensions systems have very little space to accommidate a larger wheel.




AND ANOTHER THING, to the guy from Soulcraft Cycles, quoted in the latest Mountain Bike magazine...
I'll steal a line from Vince Vega in Pulp Fiction: "Bacon is good."
The obviously ill-informed individual has bacon mixed up w/ scrapple anyway.
 

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Got it in writing

>Care to share what Pivot has told you, or are you going by some of the rumors?

No I asked specifically by email. I wanted to know if a Pivot 650B was on the horizon because, if so, I would wait rather than getting a Mach 5. They replied by email that they really want to do one "but until we can get Fox and Rock Shox to make a good fork, we likely won't be doing it. Sorry to disappoint."

VM
 

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Doesntplaywellwithmorons!
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Exactly why is an X-Fusion not a good enough fork for Pivot?! Its good enough for KHS to use it on the 2010 Six Fifty 606. Or a White Brothers as Haro and Jamis are both using ? Hell X-Fusion is even listing travel settings for "650B" mode on their website now.

Quoting from the website...

" 2010 VELOUR R

The Velour R provides a solid, dependable ride without breaking the bank. It’s half the price of some of our competitors. So whether you’re a seasoned pro or just getting into mountain biking, the stylish Velour will be sure to put a smile on your face.
* Intended use: XC/Trail
* 100mm travel with internal travel adjust for 130mm, 120mm and 80mm (Max travel in 650b mode is 120mm)
* 32mm aluminum uppertubes
* Air spring allows for wide range o"
 

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I think the fork thing is a big excuse for these companies to fall back on. I think they may be "scared" to try something new and build a 650b specific frame for fear they may not sell enough units to make it worth their while.

The lack of a RS or Fox fork argument just doesn't fly with me. Heck aren't most of these (Pivots, Turners Etc.) built at frame only and then built up by customers with their choice of components more than they are sold as complete bikes?

If you definitely want a 650b specific fully - well why not show your support to those who have ventured out to take the risk such as Haro, Jamis, Ventana, Erikson and the like.
 

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Mr.650b - Mr.27-5
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MMcG said:
I think the fork thing is a big excuse for these companies to fall back on. I think they may be "scared" to try something new and build a 650b specific frame for fear they may not sell enough units to make it worth their while.

The lack of a RS or Fox fork argument just doesn't fly with me. Heck aren't most of these (Pivots, Turners Etc.) built at frame only and then built up by customers with their choice of components more than they are sold as complete bikes?

If you definitely want a 650b specific fully - well why not show your support to those who have ventured out to take the risk such as Haro, Jamis, Ventana, Erikson and the like.
I think it's a matter of "perception". The market still views the big three brands products as superior to X-Fusion's offerings. Pivot, Turner and Ventana are smaller, boutique brands and their customers tend to build up their frames as such; only spec'ing high-end components. I don't think X-Fusion is perceived as "high-end'... yet.

With Intense and X-Fusion forming a race team this perception should start changing soon. From my own experience the Velvet (now Velour) it performs about 90% as well as my custom tuned forks at half the cost. Making the dollar to performance ratio (value) much better than the big three (imo).

Cheers,

KP
 

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noMAD man
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DeeEight said:
I was gonna say what's does trek have to do with 29ers... but i guess RC meant since they own GF, because otherwise having a pair of 69er models which have now been discontinued is hardly pushing the size very well. I also don't get RC saying that specialized's marketing department is fighting with trek's to claim they own/invented the 29er size. Specialized is a pretty late arrival to the format in the grand scheme of things. Technically Procycle group up here in the white north under their Oryx brand was doing it well before enough to be compared to GF on the size. They had their Raid series hardtail model as a 29er back in the 2002-2004 period, and then under the Rocky Mountain brand starting with the Hammer in 2008. Now they have three RM models in the size format including the Altitude with 4.5 inches of wheel travel.

And if Trek's embracing 650B its only because Haro in particular beat them to it, and this is worrisome for them because while everyone sees Trek as the other industry giant... but they're not. Maybe in the USA they are but Haro owns another well known brand name (Masi bicycles) which it operates seperately and Haro has a better following and reputation for embracing new technology and trends. Then there's the fact Turner already got onto the wheelsize, Pivot is just waiting for a fork to come along, and Jamis is jumping into it for 2010 among well known yankee brands.

The actual bicycle industry giant right now is the GT/Schwinn/Mongoose/Cannondale monster owned by Dorel Industries, a canadian manufacturing giant. With $2 billion in annual sales... well... let's just say Trek is probably worried who they might buy out next.
Not sure I agree with your assessment of Trek not embracing new technology trends. Their MTB series at the upper end of full suspension bikes has been pretty interesting with ABP, floating shock mount, and the two-stage Fox shock...those just being the bigger elements. While there is always argument about who invented what and when, I still think it comes down to how a brand/company executes whatever the relatively unconventional concept is at a given time. Trek doesn't appear to be sitting on its hands at the moment IMO, but that's an opinion, and you know what they say about that.:D

Even the 650B concept is hardly new, but the application is fairly revolutionary in serious MTB use and well outside its prior arena of existence.
 

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Kirk Pacenti said:
I think it's a matter of "perception". The market still views the big three brands products as superior to X-Fusion's offerings. Pivot, Turner and Ventana are smaller, boutique brands and their customers tend to build up their frames as such; only spec'ing high-end components. I don't think X-Fusion is perceived as "high-end'... yet.

With Intense and X-Fusion forming a race team this perception should start changing soon. From my own experience the Velvet (now Velour) it performs about 90% as well as my custom tuned forks at half the cost. Making the dollar to performance ratio (value) much better than the big three (imo).

Cheers,

KP
those are good comments Kirk.

I guess to add on to my line of thinking though - is that I think a good percentage of those who would be in the market for a frame the likes of a Pivot or Turner or whathaveyou (a Boutique frame) would also be savvy to the fact that a 650b will clear a bunch of forks from the big names just fine (Fox, Rockshox, Manitou) in addition to knowing about the other options such as the Velvet, Velour, Vengeance and White Brothers, Maverick, and/or Lefty options as well.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Hmm...maybe we'll see someone on the Intense / X-fusion rocking a 650b front wheel...
Maybe Intense tires will step up and makes some tires:thumbsup:

I think they, or Pacenti can make a downhill tire that weights less than the 1400g Kodiak WTB did w/ Niner.:D

Kirk, I hear you w/ the value for the dollar, but most guys spending $2500 on a 5-spot frame are not looking for value, otherwise they'd go SLX, not XTR.
 

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It's back

reformed roadie said:
And just that quick, it's gone!??!?!?

I took a look at 'Ask R.C.' on MBA site this morning...the post from yesterday re: 650b and fork manufacturers is gone. The posts after it are there and a couple of new ones are at the top.

I don't get it. The question was inoffensive.
Maybe it was R.C.'s answer re: Trek v. Specialized - two MBA advertisers - that got it pulled.
Maybe because he pointed out that Gary Fisher using a road wheel size for mountain bikes was not akind to discovering plutonium.

whatever.
It's back on the MBA website in the FAQ section:

http://www.mbaction.com/ME2/dirmod....F&tier=3&fid=9AF2ABCB706E410AAB3B86E833B24898
 

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Mr.650b - Mr.27-5
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reformed roadie said:
Kirk, I hear you w/ the value for the dollar, but most guys spending $2500 on a 5-spot frame are not looking for value, otherwise they'd go SLX, not XTR.
That's what I said...

Cheers,

KP
 

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reformed roadie said:
I knew it was you :smilewinkgrin:
AND ANOTHER THING, to the guy from Soulcraft Cycles, quoted in the latest Mountain Bike magazine...
I'll steal a line from Vince Vega in Pulp Fiction: "Bacon is good."
Correction. it's "Bacon TASTES good, pork chops taste good."
"and sewer rat may taste like punkin pie, but I'd never know cuz I'd never eat the filthy MFer"

sorry, couldn't resist.... Me and bacon kinda got a thing goin...
 
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