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Tony Ellsworth
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Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 13 Just in case you missed the Ellsworth Warranty discussions

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The long and short about the Ellsworth Warranty

The Short—
THE WARRANTY.
Resolving accusations our warranty not being honored is about making the facts available to everyone. The warranty, is available on our website: (http://www.ellsworthbikes.com/help/... WarrCard.pdf) Anyone interested in the facts can read it for themselves, instead of reading only hearsay and rumors. The execution of the warranty has been directly in line with what is written.

THE ADVERTISING.
As to the allegations of false advertising claims that the warranty is something other then has been practiced, etc.? I’ve added an “ad archive” of every ad we’ve placed in North American media, since ‘99/’00 (http://www.ellsworthbikes.com/ellsworthianway/index.cfm) You can check it out for your self rather then take everything you read in a MTBR discussion board for fact without checking it out on your own.

The Long—the rest of the story:
CUSTOMER SERVICE.

First, I appreciate customers taking time to relate their positive experiences in the discussion board. Sony did a study in the 80’s every customer service manager knows like scripture. It goes something like this:

For every satisfied customer, 1 out of 10 will tell of their satisfaction 1 time. On the other hand, 10 out of 10 dissatisfied customers will tell no less then 10 people of their dissatisfaction…10 times!

As for allegations or accusations of bad customer service. I have three things to say:

First, no one is perfect, though we’re constantly striving at Ellsworth, no one there has given up taking care of our customers and dealers.

Second, If there are 10 dissatisfied customers on MTBR (count the negative posts usernames, it’s not that diverse) they are telling 10 times the same dissatisfaction. Your hearing it 10 times amplified. On the other hand, the 10 satisfied Ellsworth owners represent hundreds of satisfied customers.

Third, You need to know that there’s more to the story that you’re not going to hear from the dissatisfied guy claiming he was treated poorly. Here’s a couple special ones—ask yourself which parts of the story you actually read about on the discussion boards:

Example #1. What you read in posts: Kid with Joker, warranted seven times. What you don’t hear: Come to find out his friends were taking turns dropping it off the garage roof to the driveway busting it—why not their own bikes? Because “Ellsworth has a lifetime warranty” was the answer. “Our bikes don’t.”

Example #2. What you don’t hear: Guy drops bike on rock while lifting it over fence when it’s pretty new. Dents downtube—sends us a picture, we say, we’d watch it, but wouldn’t recommend buying a replacement right away, though it undoubtedly is a stress riser, he may ride it for years without any problems, and he could always buy a replacement at some time in the future if it became necessary. He actually posts on MTBR that he rides the heck out of it, and even despite the big dent he put in it, it’s holding up great for multiple seasons. Original dent eventually does generates stress cracks. He wants it warranted for free. He’s mad because he has to pay for replacement parts—What you read on discussion board is a rant on MTBR—flaming company for weak bikes and bad customer service.

Example #3. Guy buys bike used, sight unseen, (MTBR, Ebay…buyer beware) bike breaks. He’s second owner—no applicable warranty. Shock that it came with isn’t a Truth part number, too short, worn out. He is offered to buy replacement parts and shock at a deep discount. He’s mad because he didn’t get shock (wear component) and frame (not original owner) for free. Flames us for not honoring warranty on a used bike and a wear component.

Example #4. Here’s a super reasonable case I just handled myself as it isn’t very common and I didn’t want any misunderstandings about what was to be done: Three year old front triangle failure. Not current version or technology of the Truth—no like parts in stock to warranty with. Despite the fact that our destructive testing and accumulated research shows a better then 90% correlation with under inflated shock, or hydraulic lock due to lockout left on, or worn out air shock, heavier riders and large frames. User set up is considered the owner/operator responsibility—as stated in warranty and owners manual and FAQ on website. In spite of this, we are willing to warranty the front triangle with a brand new one to the original owner no charge, once with an explanation letter about shock set up and use. However, shock lengths and rockers have changed (longer shock for lower shock shaft velocity and lower leverage ratio rockers to ease the demand on the shocks—specifically benefits heavier riders ride quality and increases durability). Owner is offered to replace his three year old and likely worn out shock for dealer cost, and purchase the new rocker assembly for a deep discount off what it would be at retail (necessary to accommodate the newer shock, if something like this had happened within the first year, we’d have provided the rocker at no charge). Cost to upgrade entire frame after three years of regular use to a brand new 2004 Truth…approximately $500. Or you could look at it as a $1,500 credit toward a brand new frame (“current technology” warrantee language).

Let’s take this last example and look at it, because here in lies a few of the frustrations with the current warranty that I am aware of. I am aware of three of these situations where I was unable to come to a meeting of the mind with the owner. Never the less, I did what was disclosed clearly in the warranty. I don’t know how to remedy the hard feelings, as what was done above is exactly what the warranty states would be done.

This is where that whole bad rap about customer service and not honoring warranty on MTBR came from in the first place I think. This doesn't happen like this very often. But when it does, most of the time, folks are ecstatic about $500 for a brand new frame. Occasionally, someone is indignant about the $500--didn't read the warranty, or maybe doesn't understand products must evolve and change to become better over the years, like software, cars, ovens, motorcycles, shoes, and yes...bikes. And they continue to rant and complain on MTBR so that you'd think the whole world has broken Ellsworth's...and Ellsworth blows them off when it happens. These rants are half-truth’s of a vocal few. As to the idea that I change products to avoid warranty that’s ridiculous.

You can categorize the number of times product evolutions have happened and recognize these MTBR rants if you know what incompatibilities have happened in the last decade. The allegation that I change products so I don’t have to warranty, or can make money by selling current parts at a deep discount them is untrue. Only a very small percentage of the bikes we ship world wide ever have problems, why would I spend the 18 months of R&D and the cost of retooling JUST to skirt coughing up a few free frames to warranty in the course of the year? The concept propagated by several discussion board mavens is preposterously confused and lacks any mathematical, numeric, or financial reason whatsoever.

Here is an actual list of the product changes that involve some degree of incompatibility, only one is complete incompatibility, and we offered upgrade programs to help. Check it out.

1996 Truth’s changed from 80mm of travel to 100mm of travel. Front triangle and shock changed so that if you had a front triangle warranty on a bike before 1997, you had to buy a new shock at dealer cost to make the frame go again. For new shock at dealer cost, you got more travel, Easton tubes, lighter stiffer stronger frame, and brand new shock.

2000 Truth’s changed completely for the first time in almost 8 years. We maintained warranty replacements until about 2002—then parts just ran out. At that time we offered a half price upgrade to the new Instant Center Tracking, cartridge-bearing Truth to any Ellsworth owner to keep them on current and warrantee-able parts. We took a lot of heat from dealers on that, who expressed their concerns that these folks upgrading should’ve been back to the dealer to buy the new bikes, as the old one’s were likely worn out and should be replaced at the dealer. We continued to offer the half price upgrade well through
2002. And dropped it to about a 35% discount the next year. By then the bikes being upgraded were well over three years old and not current technology, though there are still many of these old Truth’s out there that are loved and work great, and I still maintain inventory of service parts (bushing pivot kits available on website).

2004 Truth’s started shipping in mid 2003 utilizing the longer shocks and lower leverage ratio rockers. (better ride quality, especially for heavier riders, increased durability due to lower leverage ratio).

2002 Id’s got a new disk specific seat stay. 2001 (first year) had canti stays. Both worked great, but the disk specific stay was in high demand. We offered the opportunity for owners to upgrade at about 40% discount. Again took heat from dealers, AND took heat from owners who asserted that it was better then the old stay (which worked fine) and therefore the old stay was defective and we should give them the new stay for free—that the upgrade charge was greedy! Most people were glad to have the opportunity to upgrade the bike to disks and more tire clearance for a couple of hundred bucks. This had no affect on how Id’s were or are warranted. What you read on MTBR is the old stay was defective (not true) and we were charging to replace defective stay. The fact was the upgrade was optional—not mandatory, and the canti-boss stay worked as designed and intended on the original bike. Upgrade offer was optional.

2003 Joker gets major upgrade after four years of production. Longer Travel, stiffer, stronger, etc.. Original owner gets upgraded on any part that fails, but would have to potentially buy a shock for it to get the full benefit of the new design.

That’s it. I think in each case the upgrade path is more then valuable for the associated cost, IF ANY that might be applicable. The above is the ENTIRE story of how warranty is handled if parts have evolved. No more complicated then that. Again, if you read something that deviates much from the above—ask yourself what part of the story your not reading on the discussion board.

In the last four years, we have made more alterations, or improvements to the Truth then we did in the first 6 years of production. Mostly because we sell more, and the companies resources for R&D have made it possible to break new ground with the suspension technology, which is why when you get your new '04 Ellsworth, your just going to LAUGH at the mass media frenzy stuff…concerning the “newest” suspension system. And ask yourself “what’s the possibility the “latest, greatest, newest” design will still be here in it’s current form in 5-10 years like the Instant Center Tracking four bar link has been.”

Is there a problem understanding the warranty? I’m not sure. I’ll ramble on a bit more about it, and please take a look at the warranty on our websites FAQ section, or at the direct links above and below and email me what you think at [email protected] .

I do think the current warranty is more complex to administrate then other warrantees, I think this stems mostly from my desire to stand behind the craftsmanship of the frame for the lifetime of the frame. Unfortunately, this gets complicated—I admit. Here's why the current warranty is potentially complicated, and may well be flawed if it’s so commonly misunderstood:

First, let's say a guy is using the frame pretty hard. Which is OK, but his use is going to fatigue the material faster then another's use that might be more on the XC end of things. “A Truth is NOT a free ride frame.” You can see by definition alone, prescribed, or designed use is very difficult to define--what is XC? What is Freeride?...etc. No human can define it the same twice and agree with another human. Thus, I've determined that in this respect, my "lifetime" warranty is flawed and probably impossible to administrate without pissing people off at some point.

Second, it is impractical if not impossible to spend time and oh so little precious financial resources to manufacture and inventory parts for every Truth I've made in the last 10 years. If I never changed or improved on them, no one would want them. If I change or improve it, sometimes there is incompatibility. In MY mind (again, not everyone would agree, though many have) the opportunity to ride the heck out of a truth for three years and get a BRAND new one for a deep discount is a GREAT deal. Again, think of another industry... Drive the heck out of an off road truck, and get a new one for half price! What a deal! But again, not everyone agrees with me. However, many owners have taken advantage of this to keep fresh equipment--that causes troubles with Dealers who want to sell new stuff at full price when a person has worn out the old frame (lifetime doesn’t mean it can’t be worn out). And you can WEAR OUT a Truth...although almost everything on it can be maintained, if there are parts available. It is the lifetime of the frame...and though the warranty specifically states that if the replacement part isn't available (or that frames lifetime is over) a "credit towards current product will be issued", folks get mad that we did EXACTLY what the warranty says we would do...!? In this respect also, the perception of my warranty causes problems and misunderstandings.

Change the warranty? Help us decide. The warranty is for you—I want to give the owners and prospective owners what they want.

If the warranty changed to a strait two years, then if we exceed expectations, folks will be happy. As it is now, due primarily to the two issues above, we risk falling short of someone's expectations on what is a generous and liberal warranty in this industry (read the collection of industry warranties in FAQ section of www.ellsworthbikes.com see links). Pretty much ALL or ANY manufacturing defect, or material defect shows up within the first year. After that, it's probably fatigue, or misuse, or something. And for the few rare times it's clearly a defect of some kind--even if it's outside 2 years--won't the guy be happy that we stepped up and honored it anyway out of warranty?!

I know in my heart, and have verified with destructive testing and by FEAing others designs up and applying the same dynamic loading to my designs and theirs that Ellsworth bikes are more durable for the prescribed use then any in the industry by as much as double. AND they are all lighter then the same prescribed use bikes of other brands...that’s something we’re proud of and it is proof of some sweet and expensive engineering, design and materials. But nothing lasts forever, and while I'm perfectly willing to do a lifetime of the product warranty—will owners read warranty so they don’t just end up pissed off when the situation arrives that they've gotta buy replacement parts to keep it good? Please help us decide: [email protected]

Just like my wonderful Dodge Diesel Truck. 90,000 miles of wonderful service, and I need new shocks for the second time, new springs, a bed liner...a door seal, a dome light switch--stuff needs maintenance. It's a scientific fact called atrophy, right? Bike frames are not exempt from this. Any way, when a man thinks about it like this, it's all good. But too often, as this discussion board seems to attest to folks have had false expectations concerning the warranty. And it does makes me sad, because I care, and my staff cares, and we do our level best to take care of our customers.

Currently, the discussion boards are not an efficient way to collect honest and insightful opinions. It would be great if they could be, but that’s not what I’m seeing in the discussion boards at this time. So you’ll need to collect your thoughts and email them to [email protected].

*Download the ads—see there’s no misrepresentation (http://www.ellsworthbikes.com/ellsworthianway/index.cfm);
*Download the current warranty, let me know if any of it is unclear or if you think the way we’re handing or have handled warrantees is not inline with what we said we’d do (http://www.ellsworthbikes.com/help/... WarrCard.pdf);
*Check out this collection of sample industry warrantees http://www.ellsworthbikes.com/help/...0Warranties.pdf ) how do these compare to the Ellsworth Warranty?
*Finally, take a look at my potentially “more easily interpreted warranty” (http://www.ellsworthbikes.com/help/... WarrCard.pdf). Is this a better, clearer warranty?

Email me your thoughts: [email protected]

I value your input, as Ellsworth owners, as potential owners, or even if your not interested in an Ellsworth just as a fellow cyclist. I’m listening to your input and opinions to make owning a bike with my name on it a splendid experience. Even if you’re ranting on the discussion boards, and profess to know me well enough to hate me, I invite you to harness that energy and email me insightful and honest opinions about the material I’ve made available for everyone’s review. Include your contact information; the most useful suggestions or comments may receive a token of my appreciation for participating in providing valuable focus on the potential improvements or upgrades to the Ellsworth Warranty.

In the end, it's about making people happy, healthy, and able to enjoy the planet in an environmentally healthy way. I'm a firm believer that a man reaps what he sews, and when I'm done on this planet, I will be pleased in the knowledge that I've sewn seeds of making many people healthy and happy, and not obliterated the planet in the process.

I really appreciate your expressing your views, and your willingness to consider what I've put in print here. I remain available to any suggestions you might have to make the experience better. Thanks in advance for your time and consideration in this matter.

Sincerely,
Tony Ellsworth

Did everyone get that? I know I missed it.
 

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Rolling
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"look, look, look daddy.....go see the car accident on tv!"

I think most of us saw that thread as it keeps being pushed to the top when ppl respond. If we didn't, it's because we don't care!

Remember, when a thread goes near the top and it's bold, something new has been added.
 

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Cleavage Of The Tetons
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Methinks though doth protest too much!

That's all, folks!
 

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Doesntplaywellwithmorons!
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Wtf?!?

<i>2000 Truth’s changed completely for the first time in almost 8 years.</>

What a freaking liar. Ellsworth didn't exist in 1992, and the first 4-bar model wasn't called a truth, and didn't appear until 1995. Where does he get "almost 8 years" for something less than 5 years old ?!
 

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2002 Id’s got a new disk specific seat stay. 2001 (first year) had canti stays. Both worked great, but the disk specific stay was in high demand. We offered the opportunity for owners to upgrade at about 40% discount. Again took heat from dealers, AND took heat from owners who asserted that it was better then the old stay (which worked fine) and therefore the old stay was defective and we should give them the new stay for free—that the upgrade charge was greedy! Most people were glad to have the opportunity to upgrade the bike to disks and more tire clearance for a couple of hundred bucks. This had no affect on how Id’s were or are warranted. What you read on MTBR is the old stay was defective (not true) and we were charging to replace defective stay. The fact was the upgrade was optional—not mandatory, and the canti-boss stay worked as designed and intended on the original bike. Upgrade offer was optional.
So if it wasn't defective, why did the mtbr one break????? How many other people were "non-mandatorily" forced to upgrade when their chainstay broke? I know at least another one was, because it was in mtbr shortly after you claimed mtbr's was the only one ever to break.

Is it so hard for someone to admit they were wrong?? You would have gained a huge amount of respect, and shut the majority of people up. Now even if you do ever "come clean" no one is going to take you seriously....
 

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DeeEight said:
<i>2000 Truth’s changed completely for the first time in almost 8 years.</>

What a freaking liar. Ellsworth didn't exist in 1992, and the first 4-bar model wasn't called a truth, and didn't appear until 1995. Where does he get "almost 8 years" for something less than 5 years old ?!
"Pathalogical" is the word I believe you are looking for D8.
 

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Trail rider and racer
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lidarman said:
"look, look, look daddy.....go see the car accident on tv!"

I think most of us saw that thread as it keeps being pushed to the top when ppl respond. If we didn't, it's because we don't care!

Remember, when a thread goes near the top and it's bold, something new has been added.
If we didn't, it's because we don't care!

Amen to that Rich!
 

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Newbie Mtbr.

After seeing all of this negative publicity of Ellsworth & especially Tony's charachter through the boards, and what he has posted, there seems little reason to ever buy from a company that is questionable at all. Why would anyone touch it with a ten foot stick? Ride Santa Cruz or something else!
 

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sock puppet
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ask steve3 why not to buy Tomac either...

J-mizzle said:
After seeing all of this negative publicity of Ellsworth & especially Tony's charachter through the boards, and what he has posted, there seems little reason to ever buy from a company that is questionable at all. Why would anyone touch it with a ten foot stick? Ride Santa Cruz or something else!
unfortunately steve3 didnt start a thread on that topic. i dont know why...
 

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Trevor! said:
If we didn't, it's because we don't care!

Amen to that Rich!

trevor, you should be less biased on your coments. nobody here is trashing ellsworth bikes, its about the costumer service or the lack of it. why support a company that dont give a **** about their costumers?

you will care when you need. ( but i wish you never need to deal with him).
 

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Rolling
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I can't hold back anymore and now I need to add some pennies to the pot.

I stand here as an Ellsworth owner with some really mixed feelings. I bought a Truth (okay my wife bought me one) two months before the Id came out. I loved that bike but started worrying soon after noticing the bad customer service issues. Also, when I saw the Id, I kept thinking I wish i had one. I even joked that "When mine breaks, I'll upgrade to an Id" Well, my dream, unfortunately, came true--I cracked my Truth--twice.

And to add the details which related to Tony's letter above. My truth had two problems which relate to design flaws. One: the chainstay cracked near the BB pivot. The reason, the gap between the BB shell and the chainstay was just the right size that when you drop a chain, it wedges in between and stresses the chainstay. The new stay was relieved to allow the chain to fall in without stressing it.

Then my front triangle cracked right at the point where the main rocker pivot gusset meets the seat tube. The design flaw was a basic mechanical error in creating a stress riser by having a sharp transistion. Lots of 2001 frames failed here that I have seen on the web. Ellsworth's new design relieved that both on the Truth and Id.

All this said, I still had great customer service (<--bold for you Tony) and I went from a Truth to an Id in the process. I stand now with my Id wondering if I have to wear a paperbag when I ride since Ellsworth is do badly viewed now; and Tony's not helping with his defensive verbage pasted on at least 4 separate spots on this forum.

Tony, if your point is that the negativity is amplified by costumers who had bad experiences complain louder than satisfied ones, the logic still holds for Santa Cruz customers and I know they sell a lot more bikes than you do. So if the law of numbers works, we should be hearing lots more negative remarks from that group. Why is it we are not? None of them post on MTBR? I'd say that SC fans are a big group here on mtbr. There has been some huge issues with the Blur bearings from one poster and yet SC is not getting the rap you are.

But SC and Titus for example are not without fault. My wife tried to buy a Santa Cruz Juliana frame and waited 3 months for a frame that was suppose to take 8-10 weeks. And that 3 months was when she called them to find out it would be at least another month. She called Titus and they had their womens-small locomoto line in stock in every color. She bought a Titus and is delighted.

Now you think Titus it nice and sweet? I know someone personally (mtbr poster) who had to wait till the middle of december to get their Titus that was supposed to be delivered near the end of September. They called umteen times trying to push on them to get delivery. They finally got one in a different color since they gave up waiting for their desired color. But they are happy with their bike.

As far as breakage, I know ppl who broke Ventana, Santa Cruz, Titus, Specialized, Rocky Mountain.

I think the problem here with Ellsworth stems a lot in the way he tried to market them. He touted them as "the Best" with lifetime warranty.. The good is that maybe it sells bikes, the bad it that it puts him in the spotlight and when he slips! And boy he seems to have a bright one on him on MTBR.

So do I wish my Id would break so I can get a Moment? Or do I wish my Id would break and not get warranteed so I can switch brands. Or do I wish my Id never breaks?!
 

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Well written statement from Tony

Looks like a very well written explanation from Tony. Unfortunately you guys aren't a very reasonable audience. I reviewed the warranty and it is pretty clear. Not every small businessman is in a conspiracy to rip off the customer as many of you imply. I would be happy to ride a frame for three years then get a pro-rated updated model.
 

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sock puppet
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tell us about your broken Tomac

steve3 said:
It's quite odd how osokolo attacks me on the Ellsworth board, as well as Pete and never really gets to the issues about Ellsworth.
I challenged you to talk about your broken Tomac. You didnt say a word about it yet.it is sitting broken in the corner somewhere where you can not see it, because it hurts you more than all broken Ellsworths. why? because you burned your money buying Tomac, not Ellsworth.

So i will challenge you again, start talking about your broken Tomac, and i will stop attacking yoiur posts.

Note that i still didnt call you any names, unlike you did call me. but as i stated earlier, you can not insult me what ever you say this way. if you were saying that stuff in my face person in person, that would have been a different story. but i am sure you'd be pretty quiet in person. you are just a bully behind the computer screen that has balls to type ****, but when the time comes to back up your words person in person, you are quiet...

but forget that, tell us how your Tomac broke and what Tomac did to fix it.

why are you so miserable?
 

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sock puppet
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absolutely. i have read the warranty myself

jtlmd said:
Looks like a very well written explanation from Tony. Unfortunately you guys aren't a very reasonable audience. I reviewed the warranty and it is pretty clear. Not every small businessman is in a conspiracy to rip off the customer as many of you imply. I would be happy to ride a frame for three years then get a pro-rated updated model.
and i agree with you.

if my bike breaks 3 years down the road, i'll take new frame at the prorated price.

so this answers steve3's question... yes, i am happy with the warranty that will charge me 40-60% to have the new frame after 3 years if my frame breks within that period...

any time!!!
 

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sock puppet
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someone had to pay $500

steve3 said:
Brush up on your math. 40-60% doesn't equal the $500 you think you're going to pay.

I wonder if you're getting the points with Tony for your free prize.
for warranty upgrade, that included the shock.

if i get NEW frame at 60% of it's cost in 3 years, i'll take it in a heart beat.

i hope my math is still good...
 

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Rolling
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osokolo said:
for warranty upgrade, that included the shock.

if i get NEW frame at 60% of it's cost in 3 years, i'll take it in a heart beat.

i hope my math is still good...
Wish you and steve would stick to fighting on this thread or the other one --but not both. :p
 

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sock puppet
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your Tomac story

steve3 said:
Yes, I'll talk about my Tomac. It's broken and that's it. I addressed already that I'm waiting for my father to come back from abroad so he can get me all of the documents of the sale.

Ok, I talked about it, so now you're an immature playground bully? No, you didn't call me names, but you did tell Pete to take me out to dinner, so I addressed that in full and now you are trying to tell me that you're going to kick my ass? That I wouldn't say anything if I was right there? Heh, nor would you. You're on the other side of a computer calling people names. For your information, I don't fight and i haven't fought since grade school. I'm an adult and if I have a problem, lets say as civil debate, it's handled with words, not by degrading down to "you wouldn't talk like that if you were right here". Sounds like a person that hasn't got anything better to say anymore and is at the end of the rope.

Personally, I'm entertained by your mindless posts that are refuted not only by me.

You're obviously fuming and you don't have the luxury of meeting me and beating the crap out of me, so yes, I do have the balls to type and I am backing up my words here.

I'm sure being a threatening figure and getting into fights is something one should be proud of.
sounds quite disproportionate compared to your Ellsworth story. what is up with that? and you dont even own Ells.

did you run out of your pocket money and have to wait until your daddy comes back from abroad to give you some so that you can go out and celebrate valentine's day?

spending it in front of the computer with us doesnt sound like fun.

i am out now. gotta take my lady out for dinner... but i will be back...
 

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sock puppet
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hehehe, i agree... lets keep it on this thread...

lidarman said:
Wish you and steve would stick to fighting on this thread or the other one --but not both. :p
you hear me steve3? stick to this thread you miserable SOB.
 

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Interested

jtlmd said:
Looks like a very well written explanation from Tony. Unfortunately you guys aren't a very reasonable audience. I reviewed the warranty and it is pretty clear. Not every small businessman is in a conspiracy to rip off the customer as many of you imply. I would be happy to ride a frame for three years then get a pro-rated updated model.
I'm not going to grade Mr. Ellsworth on his explanations. You are right. The Warranty is pretty clear. It also appears that he honors the Warranty.

The issue, as I see it, doesn't appear to be about Ellsworth honoring his warranty. The issue is that when the average person reads "Lifetime Warranty", they usually don't read the fine print. The reason they don't read the fine print is because they trust their intuitions and make the assumption that the lifetime warranty is for life. The only reason that they would have to buy a whole new friame is if they damage the bike due to negligence.

Maybe the views of these people are naive, but they're not. If Mr. Ellsworth wanted to be above board with the Warranty, he would be to give his bikes a 1 year warranty and offer low-cost crash replacements of upgrades.

The result would be more satisfied customers, but I fear that some sales would be lost simply because people don't see that "Lifetime Warranty" hook.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Now you are out of line.

osokolo said:
you hear me steve3? stick to this thread you miserable SOB.
It is one thing to have a different opinion, but lay off of the name calling. There is no reason for that type of statement. We all have different information swimming in our heads, and different opinions, that is what makes a board like this so great. However, there is no reason for the way you are reacting, oskolo. Lay off. Let future bike buyers make their own opinions, with the info that is available. Stop trying to divert attention to a different bike. If you want steve3 to talk about his Tomac, I am sure he will be happy to over on the Tomac board. This particular thread is here to clear up Ellsworth's warranty as it is written. If you are happy with the way the warranty is, great. That is what it is all about. Relax, before you have a heart attack.
 
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