[Scottyman]

Currently have a 2016 Lyrik w/ RCT3 Charger and will soon upgrade to either the ACS3 or Smashpot--still debating--coil spring. I'd like to upgrade the damper side too, but not sure how much better the C2 or 2.1 are compared to my current damper and if it's even worth it. I'd prefer the Avalanche cartridge, but $$.
Are the newer dampers worth upgrading to? Are they simply tiny incremental improvements--apart from the AV cartridge--?

After some research there appears to be a retune for the Charger 1. Does anybody have instructions for this procedure? Dougal (In NZ) offers this service, but I'm in the US and don't want to pay that cost.

 

[Jesse Hill]

Currently have a 2016 Lyrik w/ RCT3 Charger and will soon upgrade to either the ACS3 or Smashpot--still debating--coil spring. I'd like to upgrade the damper side too, but not sure how much better the C2 or 2.1 are compared to my current damper and if it's even worth it. I'd prefer the Avalanche cartridge, but $$.
Are the newer dampers worth upgrading to? Are they simply tiny incremental improvements--apart from the AV cartridge--?

After some research there appears to be a retune for the Charger 1. Does anybody have instructions for this procedure? Dougal (In NZ) offers this service, but I'm in the US and don't want to pay that cost.

Look into vorsprung, they are doing Charger 1 and 2 tuning now I believe, it's just in the luftkappe section instead of service section.

 

[Dougal]

Charger 1 is a better tuning platform than Charger 2.

 

[DHRracer]

Just got my 2016 Lyrik back from Anthony at www.diazsuspensiondesign.com I had the RUNT installed, damper tuned, and fork fully serviced with return shipping for $375.00 I have only spent a few hours on it so far on smooth jump lines. One thing I was after was better mid stroke support. Very noticeable improvement. Now to hit some chunk and work on the fine tuning for that. It may seem like a lot to spend on a three year old fork to some but it needed to be serviced and even a brand new fork will need to be tuned to get the most from it for a given individuals preferences. Anthony would be more than happy to discuss it with you and he too feels the Charger 1 is better for custom tunes.

 

[defiets]

Last month I had my Charger 1 tuned (by MST in Germany). The Charger is now as it was meant to be. Brake holes are picked up well. The control is much better. When landing after a jump there is much more feedback.

 

[PHeller]

Charger 1 is a better tuning platform than Charger 2.

Can you elaborate on why this is?

I was never particularly clear on what the differences between the dampers were. Are some of the Charger dampers better for heavier riders, while others might be better for lighter riders?

I was under the impression the big step up for Charger 2.1 was its ability to adjust LSC/HSC independently. Can any of the Charger dampers control LSR/HSR independently?

 

[Dougal]

Can you elaborate on why this is?

I was never particularly clear on what the differences between the dampers were. Are some of the Charger dampers better for heavier riders, while others might be better for lighter riders?

I was under the impression the big step up for Charger 2.1 was its ability to adjust LSC/HSC independently. Can any of the Charger dampers control LSR/HSR independently?

Charger 1 has LSC needles that close like they should.
Charger 2 RC2 and RCT3 was a balls-up with the LSC needles, they couldn't close properly. The rebound piston ports were also too small so the rebound stack couldn't have the tuning range required.
Charger 2.1 they fixed those problems from Charger 2.

Out of the box they are all mediocre. Charger 1 was harsh with lockout tunes, Charger 2 was soft but still harsh and didn't tune properly. Charger 2.1 was softer still and harsh but can be tuned properly.

 

[rockman]

Can you elaborate on why this is?

I was never particularly clear on what the differences between the dampers were. Are some of the Charger dampers better for heavier riders, while others might be better for lighter riders?

I was under the impression the big step up for Charger 2.1 was its ability to adjust LSC/HSC independently. Can any of the Charger dampers control LSR/HSR independently?

Paul I've got a charger 1 out of a 2016 Lyrik if you want to play with tuning.

I stuck a 2.1 in the same fork with an ACS coil and it's more than adequate. I almost sent the charger 1 off to NZ for Dougal to work his magic but when the 2.1 route instead. No real reason why except international shipping and downtime.

 

[Davide]

Currently have a 2016 Lyrik w/ RCT3 Charger and will soon upgrade to either the ACS3 or Smashpot--still debating--coil spring. I'd like to upgrade the damper side too, but not sure how much better the C2 or 2.1 are compared to my current damper and if it's even worth it. I'd prefer the Avalanche cartridge, but $$.
Are the newer dampers worth upgrading to? Are they simply tiny incremental improvements--apart from the AV cartridge--?

After some research there appears to be a retune for the Charger 1. Does anybody have instructions for this procedure? Dougal (In NZ) offers this service, but I'm in the US and don't want to pay that cost.

I was able to get a Charger 2.1 RCT3 for $200 and I swapped it out. I works fine with my ACS3, at my weight it offers a wider range of adjustment than the Charger 1 which is what I needed. They both suffer from air build up over time. Otherwise hard to tell the difference with the coil installed. The problem is the air spring not the damper ... With the damper controlling low speed and rebound and the ACS3 taking care of small bump compliance and end of stroke the fork is now very good.

 

[PHeller]

Can a home user tear apart a Charger 1 for tuning? Or, like the FIT4, is it a situation where you need special parts to get the most out of it, like Fractive?

Fractive vs Dirtlabs JB2 Tune is pretty similar in price, but Dirtland isn't selling those parts for the home user to install.

 

[294037]

I was able to get a Charger 2.1 RCT3 for $200 and I swapped it out. I works fine with my ACS3, at my weight it offers a wider range of adjustment than the Charger 1 which is what I needed. They both suffer from air build up over time. Otherwise hard to tell the difference with the coil installed. The problem is the air spring not the damper ... With the damper controlling low speed and rebound and the ACS3 taking care of small bump compliance and end of stroke the fork is now very good.

Yup, pretty incremental changes between each damper, although it doesn't hugely matter when the air spring friction creates more force at low speed anyway (with the damper set in any sensible setting)

Charger 1 has poor low speed compression control, the entire range of adjustment from a charger 2 fits within 2 clicks of the charger 1 and then does nothing at all.
Charger 2 has more useable adjustment + adds high speed compression
Charger 2.1 has better resolution and even increments between LSC clicks.

Can a home user tear apart a Charger 1 for tuning? Or, like the FIT4, is it a situation where you need special parts to get the most out of it, like Fractive?

Fractive vs Dirtlabs JB2 Tune is pretty similar in price, but Dirtland isn't selling those parts for the home user to install.

I'll try and give a simple answer to that question - both Fit4 and Charger 1 can be disassembled at home, have shims changed and put back together and you might get a slight change in perfromance.

Fractive is the only one that makes a significant improvement, and no one makes an equivalent kit for Charger 1 that I have seen

 

[PHeller]

I'll try and give a simple answer to that question - both Fit4 and Charger 1 can be disassembled at home, have shims changed and put back together and you might get a slight change in perfromance.

Fractive is the only one that makes a significant improvement, and no one makes an equivalent kit for Charger 1 that I have seen

"The JB2 tune modifies the Charger 1 RCT3 damper for better bump compliance AND 2-way high speed and low speed compression control."

Dougal said it himself, he suspects they are divorcing the HSC and LSC. Similar as to what he does.

How? I suspect the same way that Fractive is functioning.

Only downside to Dirtlab's JB2 tune/mod is that they previously only had two options - those for folks under 180, and those above. As Rockman said a year ago: "Not sure it's really that big an improvement if you simply run your fork with HSC wide open." With only two "weights" factored into the JB2 tune, me being a bigger ride would probably end up with the HSC wide open anyway.

 

[294037]

"The JB2 tune modifies the Charger 1 RCT3 damper for better bump compliance AND 2-way high speed and low speed compression control."

How? I suspect the same way that Fractive is functioning.

They drill a hole in the side of the rod that holds the base valve piston so oil can still flow through the Low Speed circuit when the 3-pos adjuster is turned (it normally has dual function, compress the spring an close the LSC bleed).

The spring in the Charger 1 BV isn't designed as a high speed poppet valve and the adjuster is too coarse so it puts far too much preload on. Its either doing nothing at all or adds way too much preload. Not that it matters much if you run the LSC more than 6 clicks out, you're pretty much entirely in free bleed.

So yeah, nothing like Fractive at all as that changes the piston so turning the 3-pos lever adjusts how much oil can get to the shims. It has nice increments which are all noticeable and useable for the particular rider. Fit4 also has a much better LSC circuit too

 

[PHeller]

So yeah, nothing like Fractive at all as that changes the piston so turning the 3-pos lever adjusts how much oil can get to the shims. It has nice increments which are all noticeable and useable for the particular rider. Fit4 also has a much better LSC circuit too

I was just wondering from the standpoint of "if I had a Charger 1 Pike (or Lyrik) and older FIT4 34 (or 36), which would be better to spend money for mods/tune on?" It sounds like with the FIT4 stuff, the Fractive parts will end up with a slightly better end product than the modified Charger 1.

GRIP2 dampers are still way too expensive to justify spending 3x the price over a Fractive kit. Same can be said for Charger 2.1 RC2.

GRIP1 equipped forks are also of interest. Limited tune options, but shims are cheap and it's easy to get into.

 

[Davide]

I was just wondering from the standpoint of "if I had a Charger 1 Pike (or Lyrik) and older FIT4 34 (or 36), which would be better to spend money for mods/tune on?" It sounds like with the FIT4 stuff, the Fractive parts will end up with a slightly better end product than the modified Charger 1.

GRIP2 dampers are still way too expensive to justify spending 3x the price over a Fractive kit. Same can be said for Charger 2.1 RC2.

GRIP1 equipped forks are also of interest. Limited tune options, but shims are cheap and it's easy to get into.

None of the above. Get a Coil conversion.

 

[PHeller]

What if you already have a coil conversion?

 

[Aresab]

The spring in the Charger 1 BV isn't designed as a high speed poppet valve and the adjuster is too coarse so it puts far too much preload on. Its either doing nothing at all or adds way too much preload. Not that it matters much if you run the LSC more than 6 clicks out, you're pretty much entirely in free bleed.

When dirtlabs does the JB2 mod they drill the RCT3 outer knob so that there are extra stops rather than just a 3 position; I think 7 or 8. Is that still going from zero to too much?

 

[Davide]

What if you already have a coil conversion?

gosh ... it is almost impossible to follow up a conversation with this new system! How silly!

Anyway, in my experience with Charger 1 and 2.1 what makes a difference is maintenance. For some reason, even in my dry California conditions, or maybe because of that, the performance of the damper deteriorates VERY quickly. Unless I open up the fork to vent it, and lubricate the foam rings ABUNDANTLY with light GREASE the fork goes south quickly. And this is true even with the coil installed. I have no idea if tuning of these dampers would fix the problem. I doubt it. It frankly sounds like very expensive fine tuning ...

Just to repeat: Charger 2.1 has a larger range of adjustment than Charger 1 snd for me was worth the expense. If you are in the middle of the range with a Charger 1 do not upgrade ...

 

[Dougal]

They drill a hole in the side of the rod that holds the base valve piston so oil can still flow through the Low Speed circuit when the 3-pos adjuster is turned (it normally has dual function, compress the spring an close the LSC bleed).

Why would you drill holes to divorce the HSC from LSC when you can simply remove some o-rings?

Are they seriously doing that?

 

[PHeller]

Just to repeat: Charger 2.1 has a larger range of adjustment than Charger 1 snd for me was worth the expense. If you are in the middle of the range with a Charger 1 do not upgrade ...

You're looking at the question from a "what damper is best to drop in", I'm looking at it from a "what damper can I get cheap and modify to work better for far less than a new damper."