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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey Homers....can you help me out?

I have an 819 wheel with CK ISO rear Disk hub...with the standard aluminum carrier. I have an XT cassette mounted to it. The cassette has so much play....I can hear it rattle as i'm coasting. The play is not in the direction of the axle...it's in the axis of rotation. I can grab the cassette and turn it back and forth. I added grease to deaden the sound, but my other wheels don't have this kind of play. I tightened the lockring to spec...40 N-M...actually, 42, but to no avail.

What's wrong? and what's the fix.

Thanks!!
 

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An easy fix

This is a known issue with King ISO hubs and XT cassettes. I've got two CK wheelsets and I've had the problem with both, but its easily fixed. I've spoken with both Shimano and King and they naturally point fingers at each other. However, the King explanation made the most sense to me. Apparantly the culprit is the 11T cog which because of production variations they're not always manufactured to the same uniform thickness (or something to this effect).

The short of it is you need a thin spacer between the the hub body and the largest cog. Both King and Shimano make them. Shimano offered them to me for free, but I had already ordered 4 from King so I passed on the offer. When I told my LBS about the problem they offered me one for free. (I guess I should have started there first.). I've been told that Ultegra cassettes come with spacers (and they are not always needed so some people/shops have them lying around).

While you're at it King makes a great Al (or Ti for more $$$) lockring whose threads engage deeper than the stock XT ones. They're very nice.

Hope this helps. Good luck.

ps. You may come across a fix that suggests you cut out a spacer from a butter tub lid. It works for maybe 1 ride, then the cassette cuts right through it. Do it right the first time.
 

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You mean like this?


Another possible source of spacers is a extra thin X-type BB spacer (1mm) . I've used one and it fits. It was not used to resolve the cassette movement though. I am somewhat disappointed to see my cassete carrier so easily and deeply mared by my XTR cassette. My XMXL has no marks on it after a year+ of use.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Bikezilla said:
You mean like this?


Another possible source of spacers is a extra thin X-type BB spacer (1mm) . I've used one and it fits. It was not used to resolve the cassette movement though. I am somewhat disappointed to see my cassete carrier so easily and deeply mared by my XTR cassette. My XMXL has no marks on it after a year+ of use.
Thanks, Clyde. I'll get the spacer and King ring. I'll be damed if I'll pay for the ti, though. King should include an al lockring, though...since it's obviously needed.

Zilla - I feel the same way. My old carriers barely have a mark...My new King carrier is a bit chewed up. King had better watch it. Between the pricing, and issues like this, Hadley and Hugi are gonna get more business. I know that I'll think twice before I get another King.

Thanks again, guys!!!!!
 

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Just grab a thin piece of plastic (like the lid of a yogurt container) and cut a hole in it the exact outer dimention of the freehub body, and then trim it to be about 1/4" wide ring. Side that on the freehub before you mount the cassette and it will eat the needed mm of slop. I have done this many times. It's free.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Clyde S Dale said:
So the 11t cog on some Shimano cassettes really aren't out-of-spec? Well damn those CK hubs! :D
Do you wonder why this issue only seems to exist with CK hubs? I do. My cheap Rolf hubs and my cheap Onyx hubs have no issues like that. Why aren't the Shimano cassettes out of spec for them?

Just curious.
 

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Since you quoted my reply to Gonzostrike let me start by saying that the purpose of my reply was to suggest that Shimano might still be culpable despite the status of CK's reputation or pricing (good, bad, or otherwise).

Blue Shorts said:
Do you wonder why this issue only seems to exist with CK hubs? I do.
No. I wonder why the issue seems only to exist with Chris King ISO Disk hubs and Shimano XT 11-32/34 cassettes (I think there is or was a 12t version of the XT that fits fine). I own 2 CK ISO wheelsets and 1 Shimano XT wheelset. All 3 have XT cassettes and I had a problem only on the CK wheels. Based on that one might conclude the problem is King's machining.

However, when I installed an old LX cassette and a SRAM cassette borrowed from a friend and put them on the King hubs I had no looseness or rattling whatsoever.

So what gives? Honestly, I don't know. I'm not competent to speak about machining and production to give a difinitive answer.

Blue Shorts said:
My cheap Rolf hubs and my cheap Onyx hubs have no issues like that. Why aren't the Shimano cassettes out of spec for them?

Just curious.
Again I couldn't answer, though I share your curiosity. However, I figure there are at least 3 logical possibilities with regard to the King/Shimano issue:

1. Some Shimano's are out-of-spec.

2. Some King's are out-of-spec.

3. Sometimes both King and Shimano are out-of-spec, but there is only looseness or rattling when the King hub body is too wide and the Shimano cassette is too narrow.

There may be issues with other hubs and cassettes, but the most prevalent and consistent one I know of is the one discussed here.

I hope you get the problem solved soon because I know how irritating it is to be jamming down hard pack singletrack and all you hear is that frickin noise that sounds like something's about to fall of the bike.
 

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HyperDrive-C Cassettes

Blue Shorts said:
The cassette has so much play....I can hear it rattle as i'm coasting. The play is not in the direction of the axle...it's in the axis of rotation. I can grab the cassette and turn it back and forth.
As others have mentioned, the problem is that the small cog bottoms out on the freehub body before it can clamp down on the cassette. You should take care of it before you ride it anymore because you can quickly ruin your aluminum freehub body.

The problem is that Shimano changed their freehub body specs slightly when they came out with the "HyperDrive-C" cassette (i.e. the 11 tooth compact cassettes). Here is a description of the "HyperDrive-C" cassette. In the picture of the old and new freehub bodies, you can see what has been changed:

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/k7.html#hyperdrivec

On the King freehub, the splines go almost all the way to the end of the body, so it doesn't appear that King has modified their freehub to be compatible with the HyperDrive-C cassettes. Maybe they have and the problem is with Shimanos specs. I don't know who is at fault but the splines on the King freehub certainly are closer to the end of the freehub body than are Shimanos.


<img src ="https://gallery.consumerreview.com/webcrossing/images/kingfreehub-a.jpg">

As others have mentioned, you can use a spacer to move the cassette outboard a bit. There are some issues with this approach. The standard lockring really doesn't have enough threads to use it safely with a spacer (well, mine doesn't anyway), so you also need to get a deeper lockring with more threads. Also, if you swap wheels, then you have to make sure the cassettes on your other wheels are spaced out as well.

However, it is possible to modify the King freehub body to work with the "HyperDrive-C" cassette. The modification is free, and it doesn't require any spacers or special lockrings. I guess it depends on how you feel about taking a file to your King freehub.

Here is a link to an article that describes how to make the modifications. The text is probably not much help, because it's in Norwegian. But, the pictures are really all you need. Just file a bit off the end of the splines on the freehub body as shown in the pictures.

https://terrengsykkel.no/?902

Before:



After:

 

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Well, let me throw a wrench in the works here. A year or so back I was running a Bontrager wheel set, I don't recall which at this point, and encountered the same problem with an XT Cassette that Blue Shorts has encountered on his Kings. And to answer the inevitable question, no these were not the Race Lights with King built hubs, they had a pretty decent cup and cone bearing hub, though as I recall the freehub croaked realativly quickly on this particular set.

I ended up giving the cassette to a friend who mounted it onto a similar hub and had the same problem. So at least in that particular the case the cassette was to blame.

happy trails...

squish
 

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Ditto...sort of

squish said:
A year or so back I was running a Bontrager wheel set, I don't recall which at this point, and encountered the same problem with an XT Cassette. And to answer the inevitable question, no these were not the Race Lights with King built hubs, squish
I have a set of the King/Bonti Racelites and with the XT cassette, I jingled all the way home. I figured it was the loose cogs (the ones not attached to the carrier) and just slapped some grease in there and ignored it. The XT cassette is now on an XT hub and a SRAM cassette is on the Racelites. Not a single peep outta either of 'em.

'Zilla, try a SRAM cassette with the composite carrier, that'll solve some of the marring issues you're getting with the hub. King's usually have aluminum freehubs, I think Mavic uses steel. You could order a steel body, or as the King of Bling, could lobby for a ti body. I always wondered why King (with their Ti headset) didn't offer a ti version of the hub...of course that'd probably double the cost of 'em :p

I will now sign off to allow the Hadley and Hope groupies to gloat how their heroes already offer titanium versions...
 

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Umm, cool link and all, but it would really help if it were in English. Or maybe I just missed the english button on the site.

happy trails...

squish
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Good information, thanks.

I have a couple of questions....

1) Do I just file off the bevel or do i need to file more?

2) What is the distance from the end of the carrier to the beginning of the splines (after filing) and is this distance critical.

3) Will I still need the longer lockring if I modify the King carrier?

3) Can I just switch to an SRAM cassette or Shimano LX or XTR to get rid of the problem without filing the King carrier?

Thanks. This is all good information.
 

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Blue,

FWIW I use an XTR cassete and have not experienced the problem. But then I also had an XT cassette on for a short while and that seemed okay as well. I'll have to pull it back out and double check the fitting and compare ID measurements. I'd like to know why only the XT cassettes seem to have this problem, while the XTRs don't.

As I mentioned before I also used a 1mm spacer for chainline a alignment experiment. I did not notice a need for a longer lockring. The stock one seemed to reach and secure fine. The reduction in mating threads may not be 1:1 with the increase in spacer width. Perhaps a 1mm spacer only moves the cassette enough to allow it to be properly torqued between the lockring and the rear of the carrier w/o bottoming the lockring. Depending on the initial gap, I think such an adjustment can be done w/o significantly reducing the # of mated threads. A 2mm or larger spacer might though.

This is all speculation on my part, but I didn't have problems with the lockring while using a 1mm spacer.

About the marring. I love my CKs, but being top shelf, it would be nice if they used a different material. My XMXL freehub body didn't look particularly heavier than the CK one and it's gouge free. I'd take the 10g hit for something harder. BTW I find it ironic that Bkm's mod picture above also includes cassette maring in the after picture:rolleyes: .
 

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Bikezilla said:
As I mentioned before I also used a 1mm spacer for chainline a alignment experiment. I did not notice a need for a longer lockring. The stock one seemed to reach and secure fine. The reduction in mating threads may not be 1:1 with the increase in spacer width. Perhaps a 1mm spacer only moves the cassette enough to allow it to be properly torqued between the lockring and the rear of the carrier w/o bottoming the lockring. Depending on the initial gap, I think such an adjustment can be done w/o significantly reducing the # of mated threads.
I tried a 1mm spacer on my hub (with an XT 11-34) and I only had 1 thread of engagment on the lockring. Not nearly enough for me to feel good about using that spacer. Shimano did make a .5mm spacer to solve the problem. I have the part number around here someplace, but I have heard that it has been discontinued.

However, now that the outboard bearing cranksets have a slightly larger chainline, maybe spacing the cassette out a mm isn't such a bad idea anyway. However, I suspect that King doesn't give those lockrings away :rolleyes:. What is the price on those?
.

Bikezilla said:
I find it ironic that Bkm's mod picture above also includes cassette maring in the after picture:rolleyes: .
I'm pretty sure the marring occured before the modification was done, thus prompting the modification. I rode mine for a few weeks before I noticed the problem, and my freehub body looks much much worse. After only a few rides, mine was marred badly enough, that it was actually a bit hard to get the cassette off.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Bikezilla said:
Blue,

I'd like to know why only the XT cassettes seem to have this problem, while the XTRs don't..
Me, too. I don't want to have to buy an XTR cassette. I'll most likely buy an SRAM or LX....I'd hate to modify the carrier, but I might.

Bikezilla said:
This is all speculation on my part, but I didn't have problems with the lockring while using a 1mm spacer..
I want to avoid using a spacer as I like to change out wheelsets pretty frequently (different tires for different rides).

Bikezilla said:
About the marring. I love my CKs, but being top shelf, it would be nice if they used a different material. My XMXL freehub body didn't look particularly heavier than the CK one and it's gouge free. I'd take the 10g hit for something harder. BTW I find it ironic that Bkm's mod picture above also includes cassette maring in the after picture:rolleyes: .
Yep. I have the same marring in the same locations. The rings that are not on the cassette carrier but more stress the soft aluminum. I wonder if the maring occurred before or after the modifications.

I didn't want to be spending my time this week working on the wheels. I have a 24 hour race coming up and I want to make sure the Fuel is ready to go. btw....I'm on the MTBR corporate team. It should be fun. I'm hoping that Francois gives us MTBR Jerseys for representing his business....or at least a deep discout. We'll see.
 

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Blue Shorts said:
Good information, thanks.

I have a couple of questions....

1) Do I just file off the bevel or do i need to file more?

2) What is the distance from the end of the carrier to the beginning of the splines (after filing) and is this distance critical.

3) Will I still need the longer lockring if I modify the King carrier?

4) Can I just switch to an SRAM cassette or Shimano LX or XTR to get rid of the problem without filing the King carrier?

Thanks. This is all good information.
Good questions. Unfortunately, I don't know the answer to most of them.

A1&2) I don't know. The article doesn't say how much material to remove. Neither does the Sheldon Brown link (he suggests the same modification). From the picture it looks like it's just the bevel. But, since a 1mm spacer solves the problem (at least it did for me), then I would say you should only have to remove at most 1mm of material from the end of the splines.

A3) No, you don't need a special lockring after the modification.

A4) I don't know. That's one thing I like about the modification, you don't have to worry about it, the hub will work with all cassettes.

However, as I mentioned to BZ, since the outboard bearing cranksets have a bit larger chainline that the older cranks, maybe running a 1mm spacer isn't a bad idea anyway. I was just offering an alternate (not necessarily better) solution.
 

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You can also find an old 11t cog with teh deeper recesses and use that. I have had cassette rattle with that particular flavor of XT cassette on my Kings, DTs, and WTB Laserdiscs. It's fun, but erroneous, to blame King.
 
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