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@eytanm What are we discussing? The probability data you suggest, can we have a link to what you saw?

Physical bicycle exertion I suppose could trigger a cardiac event. What about other triggers. Why would someone at cardiac risk be on a group ride. Does this person disclose this fact? Is it you?

The title in the post is about carrying a defibrillator in a group. Whoever is carrying it, are they competent in using it?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
We are 15 bikers in the group, ages 70-85.
We are arguing if carrying a defibrillator may be of real benefit, or the probabilities of cardiac arrest and survival are too low to justify the logistics, training, weight...
I did not see any analysis, I hope to have your help in finding one.
 

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Surmising. The defibrillator carry is in the “just in case category”.

Many carry stuff on our bikes for contingencies. If one feels like any piece of contingency equipment is a might be needed item….

Analysis articles. No help my end.

Cheers
 

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I'd say no. What would happen in reality? Someone goes into cardiac distress, the defibrillator gets put on, they pop back up and continue the ride? Or is it a stop gap until said person gets transported to the hospital? Should someone that feels they really might have an event out on the trail be out on the trail in the first place? I can see carrying an epipen or nitro or a first aid kit, but a defibrillator is a very extreme just-in-case piece of equipment.
 

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I don't know how hard it is to get medical workups where you live.
5 or 6 years ago, I decided I wanted a "calcium score". I called around and found a place to get it done for about $150 (U.S.) within 3 or 4 days. The test took less than a minute. I expect some insurance covers it, but I just paid out of pocket. It's basically the cost of 2 good tires.
Prior to that, I got a stress echo cardiogram. In that case, it was required by the FAA in the U.S. and was covered by insurance. Again, scheduling was not a problem.
I'd say that if you got those two tests, you'd have a very good estimation of the risk of a cardiac event in conjunction with exercise, though anything can happen, of course.
Additionally, a quick listen to your carotid artery (according to my doctor) is another good, easy way to get some data on vascular status.
I wouldn't be inclined to bring something like a defibrillator on a ride. But I think it makes sense to get some health data at your (our) age.
If you go to an FAA doctor, they have ECG gear, as an ECG is required yearly for certain licenses.
 

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There are some studies linked at the above website. Defibrillators are more commonplace now and give step-by-step verbal instructions, but I question the practicality of bringing one on a bicycle ride. For your group I'd think that if someone thought it was worth attaching a pannier and lugging it along then they can do so?
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I don't know how hard it is to get medical workups where you live.
5 or 6 years ago, I decided I wanted a "calcium score". I called around and found a place to get it done for about $150 (U.S.) within 3 or 4 days. The test took less than a minute. I expect some insurance covers it, but I just paid out of pocket. It's basically the cost of 2 good tires.
Prior to that, I got a stress echo cardiogram. In that case, it was required by the FAA in the U.S. and was covered by insurance. Again, scheduling was not a problem.
I'd say that if you got those two tests, you'd have a very good estimation of the risk of a cardiac event in conjunction with exercise, though anything can happen, of course.
Additionally, a quick listen to your carotid artery (according to my doctor) is another good, easy way to get some data on vascular status.
I wouldn't be inclined to bring something like a defibrillator on a ride. But I think it makes sense to get some health data at your (our) age.
If you go to an FAA doctor, they have ECG gear, as an ECG is required yearly for certain licenses.
 

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All of us are in quite good shape, biking together for 15 years, and taking good care of ourselves, including using the best available cardiac medicine and technology.
Nevertheless, cardiac arrests may happen. We are trying to estimate the potential risk, and not just act upon fear and emotions.
Given this, I'd say your risk is low at the 70 year old end, but if I were the 85 year old, I'd consider an ebike. Maybe stick his tongue against the electrodes if he has an event.

OTOH:

1941190
 

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We are 15 bikers in the group, ages 70-85.
We are arguing if carrying a defibrillator may be of real benefit, or the probabilities of cardiac arrest and survival are too low to justify the logistics, training, weight...
I did not see any analysis, I hope to have your help in finding one.
Ya gotta die sometime. You guys have all had good runs - if the good lord is calling, answer the call and head toward the light.
 

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Defib paddles could be a new e-bike accessory. Just plug them in to the accessory port, and zap.

Seriously though, there have been several fatal heart attacks on the trails around us over the years. And some were younger than your group. I've scared myself a few times when the chest gets to thumping too hard on a climb.
 

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Surmising. The defibrillator carry is in the "just in case category".

Many carry stuff on our bikes for contingencies. If one feels like any piece of contingency equipment is a might be needed item….

Analysis articles. No help my end.

Cheers
While true, it would then reason that one has performed a risk analysis and is carrying the gear most appropriate to the most frequent or likely situation to be encountered. Like, you would want a 406mhz PLB before a lot of other things. Extra water/shelter or filter, etc.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
There are some studies linked at the above website. Defibrillators are more commonplace now and give step-by-step verbal instructions, but I question the practicality of bringing one on a bicycle ride. For your group I'd think that if someone thought it was worth attaching a pannier and lugging it along then they can do so?
There are some studies linked at the above website. Defibrillators are more commonplace now and give step-by-step verbal instructions, but I question the practicality of bringing one on a bicycle ride. For your group I'd think that if someone thought it was worth attaching a pannier and lugging it along then they can do so?
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Thanks you Dan for the very relevant reference.
3 cardiac arrests per 100,000 riders of 109km race, gives you some ball park for the risk involved. Although it is not trivial how to account for the many differences in age, race difficulty, etc.
I will look into the other references.
 

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It would not likely matter if you had a defibrillator out on the trail or not. You'd likely die either way. Cardiac arrest survival rate is something like 10%-12% unless it occurs inside a hospital, and even if you get the AED on you it's still less than 40%. Of course, if someone crumps out on the trail if paramedics can get there within a few minutes maybe they'd survive but the chances of having emergency personnel within a few minutes away is super low. Therefore, I wouldn't bother hauling the AED around. Your group sounds like you're in good shape so I'd just make my peace with the idea of dying doing something you enjoy.

@wcm/@ADV/documents/downloadable/ucm_301646.pdf
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
It would not likely matter if you had a defibrillator out on the trail or not. You'd likely die either way. Cardiac arrest survival rate is something like 10%-12% unless it occurs inside a hospital, and even if you get the AED on you it's still less than 40%. Of course, if someone crumps out on the trail if paramedics can get there within a few minutes maybe they'd survive but the chances of having emergency personnel within a few minutes away is super low. Therefore, I wouldn't bother hauling the AED around. Your group sounds like you're in good shape so I'd just make my peace with the idea of dying doing something you enjoy.

@wcm/@ADV/documents/downloadable/ucm_301646.pdf
 
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