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Carbon frames not tough enough for BC Bike Race

3380 Views 45 Replies 16 Participants Last post by ferday, Jul 5, 2009

ccm

Discussion Starter · Jul 2, 2009 (Edited)

from camera moto guy
"Oh yeah 3 snapped Carbon frames today, 2 Gary Fishes, one Trek, crazy!!! "

listen for Dave Norona's comments about weight weenie bikes near ome minute of the clip
"eight broken bikes so far, so don't bring your sissy xc carbon mumbo jumbo light weight tech weenie bike to the BC Bike Race, bring your big boy or big girl bike..."

more carnage day 5 http://velonews.com/article/94196/a-bc-bike-beat-down

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rockyuphill

· #2 · Jul 2, 2009

Some carbon frames are not tough enough for the BC Bike Race. Alison Sydor is riding her carbon Vertex hardtail.

I was at a Titus demo day in North Vancouver last week and someone managed to break the carbon seat stay on one of the demo bikes riding Seymour.

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Broccoli

· #3 · Jul 2, 2009

But... but... everybody here is saying that it is the only way to go?

pastajet

· #4 · Jul 2, 2009

Hmmm, ridden an Ibis Mojo through some hellishness terrain for 3 years and never had an issue, I think it is the particular bike, and not carbon in general, heck Brian Lopes races some sick stuff on the all carbon Ibis Mojo, people also break metal bikes!

Broccoli

· #5 · Jul 2, 2009

pastajet said:
Hmmm, ridden an Ibis Mojo through some hellishness terrain for 3 years and never had an issue, I think it is the particular bike, and not carbon in general, heck Brian Lopes races some sick stuff on the all carbon Ibis Mojo, people also break metal bikes!

I think it is more about the lightweight hardtails with paper thin walls.

Properly engineered CF frame can be as strong as you want it to be, nobody can dispute that. It just will be expensive - and not that much better then a metal alternative - with current technology.

And yes, some ultralight aluminum frames are even worse.

Circlip

· #6 · Jul 2, 2009

Let's do some simple match here. 3 days of BCBR = 3 broken frames, among 400 riders. If a rider is going to have 100 solid riding days per year, then number of broken frames = 100 toasted, out of 400 total. 25% annual failure rate when the bikes are ridden hard is not good IMHO. If we go further and assume that maybe 100 or less of total riders in the event were on carbon frames (wild guess), that means it could be a very high percentage of riders experiencing failures annually. That's probably just telling us what we already know, which is that putting in a healthy number of hours annually of semi-tech riding on light carbon hardtail race frames will produce a high failure rate.

ccm

Discussion Starter · #7 · Jul 2, 2009 (Edited)

Dave Norona says something like "leave your ultra light xc carbon foo foo bikes at home, and bring your big boy or big girl bikes" near the end of his video clip (updated correctly top of post)

But, its probably more the application of the material rather than the type of material used.
I've had no problems with monkey-lite carbon bars going on greater than 8 years (same bar used for both the BCBR and BC Cup DH races).
And it may not be just hard tails, some of the sub 5 lb including shock carbon dual susp frames may be the culprits.
Likely, the culprit frames were designed for World Cup races, so frames would only need to last 2 hours.

Circlip, I like your statistical way of thinking. It makes me think that I'm in no rush to get a sub 5 lb full susp, in any kind of material, especially as I don't get free replacement bikes when ever I want.

rockyuphill

· #8 · Jul 2, 2009

Not to mention that the 3 broken Trek and Fisher frames are from the same parent company. I'm just saying...

...or that some damage may be from accidents and crashes that would have hurt an aluminium frame as well.

juan_speeder

· #9 · Jul 3, 2009

Circlip said:
Let's do some simple match here. 3 days of BCBR = 3 broken frames, among 400 riders. If a rider is going to have 100 solid riding days per year, then number of broken frames = 100 toasted, out of 400 total. 25% annual failure rate when the bikes are ridden hard is not good IMHO. If we go further and assume that maybe 100 or less of total riders in the event were on carbon frames (wild guess), that means it could be a very high percentage of riders experiencing failures annually. That's probably just telling us what we already know, which is that putting in a healthy number of hours annually of semi-tech riding on light carbon hardtail race frames will produce a high failure rate.

Your match [sic] sucks. Not that the below has any bearing on reality whatsoever.

3 days with 400 riders = 1200 riding days.

1200 riding days/ 3 broken frames = 1 broken frame per 400 riding days, or .25% chance of frame failure up in BC.

How, exactly do you arrive at a 25%, which is two orders of magnitude higher?

Circlip

· #10 · Jul 3, 2009

Too bad you've answered a completely different question. My math is just fine for the admittedly speculative conclusion I drew.

juan_speeder said:
Your match [sic] sucks. Not that the below has any bearing on reality whatsoever.

3 days with 400 riders = 1200 riding days.

1200 riding days/ 3 broken frames = 1 broken frame per 400 riding days, or .25% chance of frame failure up in BC.

How, exactly do you arrive at a 25%, which is two orders of magnitude higher?

Hand/of/Midas

· #11 · Jul 3, 2009

rockyuphill said:
Not to mention that the 3 broken Trek and Fisher frames are from the same parent company. I'm just saying... ...or that some damage may be from accidents and crashes that would have hurt an aluminium frame as well.

Made with Pride in America, broken with ease in Canada?

Jerk_Chicken

· #12 · Jul 3, 2009

Dave Norona is an assclown.

rockyuphill

· #13 · Jul 3, 2009

2

Hand/of/Midas said:
Made with Pride in America, broken with ease in Canada?

The trails here are nasty tough on bikes, so its likely they put up a good fight before failing.

I was just looking through my shots of the first stage start and there were a lot of lighter carbon XC bikes in the race, including the Orbea FS bikes ridden by the Luna Chix, lots and lots of Trek Fuel FS bikes with the kinky seat tube, a couple of Cannondales, a few Scotts, a few Specialized, it looked like a Giant or two.

I expect that this race will kill an aluminium frame or two before it's done too.

One thing that's rather unique to BC's west coast trails is the use elevated wood, it is not a rare thing, it's ubiquitous feature as it is often the only way to get a trail over deadfall when the tree trunks are 2' - 3' in diameter, or across low soggy spots, or across exposed coastal mountain rock that has no ridable route across it. That means that going "off trail" often results in a drop of a couple of feet into hostile terrain.

Natural environment Bicycle Mountain bike Bicycle frame Forest

Natural environment Plant community Tree Forest Old-growth forest

From VeloNews...

"We've seen a crazy number of bent brake rotors and broken wheels from people who have skidded off of logs and rocks," said James Wilson, one of the nine staffers from Obsession Bikes - a North Vancouver bike shop - providing mechanical support for the event. "Free hubs are also breaking a lot," Wilson said.

Marshall Cant, a 20-year veteran of supporting mountain bike races, is another mechanic working at the Obsession Bikes tent. Cant is a two-time finisher of the TransRockies race in eastern British Columbia, and said he offers similar advice to prospective stage racers.

"I tell people to keep things simple - bring equipment that is easy to maintain because you put a season's worth of riding on your stuff in one week," Cant said. "Stay away from the exotic, like fancy wheels or suspension parts. If it breaks, chances are we aren't going to carry the parts."

Cant, who now is a product manager at Syncros, also said he steers would-be stage racers away from dishing out big dollars on expensive component groups for stage races. The cheaper, heavier components, he said, hold up better over a week of hard abuse. But riders should make sure that gears and brakes are dialed in and working properly before the race.

The constant terrain changes at the BC Bike Race, Cant said, puts a premium on clean shifting.

"The pros need the light stuff, but they're only racing for three hours a day," Cant said. "The average Joe is out there longer and probably putting the stuff through even more stress. That lightweight stuff can only take so much."

Sitting in the back of Cant's trailer was a junk pile of broken carbon fiber bike frames, many of them big-dollar models. Cant said he recommends bringing alloy frames on the stage races because of this reason.

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rockyuphill

· #14 · Jul 3, 2009

But I am less concerned about issues with carbon fiber and bike frames than I would be about Boeing finding that carbon fibre and airframes ain't working out quite the way they hoped. :skep:

Jerk_Chicken

· #15 · Jul 3, 2009

You know what's even more outstanding about the video? I was cooking my eggs in the background and heard the contrived "OWWWW!" from that toolbox norona. His friends seem nice enough, but Dave is about as big a toolbox as Bikerfox at this point.

Does every one of his videos have to look like Blair Witch or Cloverfield?

The "Owwww" at 2:26 is just awful.

Pretty much, this is what you'll see ruining the stoke in every one of his videos:

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ccm

Discussion Starter · #16 · Jul 3, 2009

velonews showing Cannondale and Scott breaking too

rockyuphill

· #17 · Jul 3, 2009

If Alison Sydor gets all the way through on her paper thin Vertex Team hardtail frame it will be a good indication that the rider skill might have a big part to play in frame breakage. :thumbsup:

markw1970

· #18 · Jul 3, 2009

Are there more facts available about the breakages? The fact on it's own is fairly meaningless, unless it can be placed in context. There are too many variables to give such a statement much credence - for example: how old is the frame; has it been crashed or abused in the past; what skill does the rider have; was it a crash in this race... Trying to make up statistical data to back up an argument seems pointless - unless there's been a real study with credible data to discern results.

Things may break, that's about the only conclusion I can draw from this.

Broccoli

· #19 · Jul 3, 2009

markw1970 said:
Are there more facts available about the breakages? The fact on it's own is fairly meaningless, unless it can be placed in context. There are too many variables to give such a statement much credence - for example: how old is the frame; has it been crashed or abused in the past; what skill does the rider have; was it a crash in this race... Trying to make up statistical data to back up an argument seems pointless - unless there's been a real study with credible data to discern results.

For the purpose of statistical comparison difference in the number of failures between frames of different construction is significant - since one could reasonably assume that the prior history of all frames and rider skills will be the same on average.

Since carbon, like titanium does not have a limited fatigue life, as lightweight aluminum frame do, age is probably not important. Prior damage could be a factor, but I doubt those racers would miss that.

n8rhino

· #20 · Jul 3, 2009

I think you are comparing apples and oranges? I will assume that the frames that have been broken are from amateur racers (maybe even unfamiliar with your North of the Border trail?)? I'll also assume that the pros aren't breaking their frames? So to make a blanket statement that this company or that company sucks because look at all the broken frames is off base. If a "Rookie" rams a Huffy or S-Works Epic into a rock they probably will both break? It's operator error more than mechanical error. That said some of these $15,000 12lbs. fullies I've seen on this site probably wouldn't make it through a 30 minute short track race?

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