[TRIUMPH KID]

S-Works SJ carbon HT= FACT 10M
SJ Expert carbon HT= FACT 9M

Can anyone explain the differences? Is the S-Works worth the extra cash or is it hype? Would be interesting to do a blindfold test, both bikes with the same components, of course first remove the blindfold before riding!
I am asking this as I am real close to pulling the trigger on an S-Works but starting to get cold feet about spending roughly double the money on the S-W over the Expert. I know the S-W is spec'd much nicer, I am mainly concerned at this point with frame differences as individual components can be changed easily.

 

[tonyxcom]

I am pretty sure the difference is big on paper, but small in real life for the average rider. I would base your decision on components and price.

I'd get the S-Works if I could afford it.

 

[Lambdamaster]

I am willing to bet big money that if I gave you two frames, one s-works 10m and one 9m, both covered in identical opaque paint, you will not be able to tell any difference, especially since it is a FS. I think the biggest appreciable benefit from an s-works frame is the bling-factor. There might be a small difference in weight, but you'd have to be a seriously hardcore weight-weenie to pay the premium for such meager gram reductions.

 

[amillmtb]

Someone explained this to me. He said that the 10m is a tighter carbon weave so the tube is still as stiff as the 9m, but can be thinner and theoretically lighter. I dont know if this is really true or not, but it sounds like it could be a good argument.

If you can pony up for it, I would say get the SW. The better the parts on the bike stock, the less you might have/want to replace down the road.

 

[jut8]

I would say the big difference isnt so much in the carbon, but if you buy the s-works in a frame only you get the sweet Custom Reba with the 1 piece carbon crown/steerer tube. If you buy the S-Works complete, you get the fork/XX Group/Roval Wheels/and the sweet specialized carbon crank. Its a really nice bundle, but if you are on a budget, the $3300msrp Stumpy Carbon expert is the best bang for the buck. I have one, but now wish i would have bought the s-works for the fork. I would love to get my hands on the carbon single speed frame/fork set if they become available again.

It all depends what you want, and what you want to spend. I have my Carbon Expert weighing at 21lbs and a few ounces with a computer and pedals, but i swapped quite a few items. I am hoping the weight goes down even more once the XX stuff comes back into stock at my shop.

 

[furball]

From Specialized site...

FACT Carbon ratings

Question
What is the difference between 10/9/8 carbon that you use on the different level bikes? Is it thinner, lighter, different layup, etc?

Answer
The "R" value is an indication of the level of modulus of the carbon fibers; the higher the value, the higher the modulus. Modulus simply refers to the stiffness of the individual fibers in the carbon matrix, which will dictate the overall stiffness and efficiency of the material. As modulus increases, we are able to use less material to produce a frame of equal or greater stiffness than that of frame utilizing lesser modulus fibers.

As a general rule, each higher level of carbon will decrease frame weight 100-150 grams, and provide a slightly stiffer, snappier ride.

 

[TRIUMPH KID]

Ok, makes sense, lets take this one step farther. How does aluminum compare to carbon for pedaling efficiency? Again, all things being equal, BB and steering stem diameters etc. Just comparing Alum to carbon for pedaling efficiency, not ride quality or weight. Also to clarify, only talking hardtail here.

 

[Lambdamaster]

Ok, makes sense, lets take this one step farther. How does aluminum compare to carbon for pedaling efficiency? Again, all things being equal, BB and steering stem diameters etc. Just comparing Alum to carbon for pedaling efficiency, not ride quality or weight. Also to clarify, only talking hardtail here.

how heavy are you?? Can you squat 400lbs??

 

[TRIUMPH KID]

Actually just the opposite. When you have chicken legs, pedaling efficiency is even more important. Just curious as to the differences between frame materials.

how heavy are you?? Can you squat 400lbs??

 

[mcmurv]

TriumphKid:
What are you going to use the bike for? Are you going to be cruising the trails with the crew or are you going to be racing? If you are going to be racing, what kind of racing? CX or ultra endurance racing? If you do race, how competitive are you?

I have ridden 10m fiber and 11m fiber. The difference really is barely perceptible. You might notice a touch more give in the 9m fiber. That is just a guess on the difference I think I felt in the 10m vs. 11m bikes.

Ultimately, if you aren't racing competitively, get the cheaper bike and kick up some of the components. If you are racing competitively, get the 10m. Every gram matters.

 

[Lambdamaster]

Actually just the opposite. When you have chicken legs, pedaling efficiency is even more important. Just curious as to the differences between frame materials.

if you don't put out much torque, then you will likely not twist the frame enough to flex it.

 

[582fresh]

according to specialized an s-works 29er ht frame is 1130g while the expert is 1282g but both have a stiffness to weight ratio ((Nm/deg)/kg) of 77 meaning the higher grade carbon weighs less to get the same sitffness and strenght of the lower quality version.

as a comparison the superfly ht's specs are 1238g and 57((Nm/deg)/kg) and the Air 9 is 1490g and 48((Nm/deg)/kg)

the one thing not mentioned is what frame size this is based on but i would assume that all specs are based on the same frame size.

i hope this helps.

i also have an expert which i liove but may get an s-works later in the spring. we'll see how the $$ situation is then.

 

[Lambdamaster]

according to specialized an s-works 29er ht frame is 1130g while the expert is 1282g but both have a stiffness to weight ratio ((Nm/deg)/kg) of 77 meaning the higher grade carbon weighs less to get the same sitffness and strenght of the lower quality version.

actually, this data means the s-works frame has inferior stiffness since they have the same 77 (Nm/deg)/kg. The S-works has 77(Nm/deg)/Kg*1.130Kg which equals 87.01Nm/deg while the expert has 77(Nm/deg)/Kg*1.282Kg which equals 98.71Nm/deg.

Since, according to the data you provided, they have the same stiffness/weight ratio, the sworks basically sacrifices some stiffness to save weight. It's tempting to conclude that the differences in the composite technology within the two frames are nonexistent given the identical stiffness/weight ratio, but there are confounding factors such as frame design and lay-up process which likely create a non-linear relationship between amount of material in Kg and stiffness in Nm/deg. Another interesting confounding factor is that after the two frames are baked, they will receive (most likely) an identical amount of clear coat and/or finishing resin, which skews the calculations since you would have to subtract the weight of the finishing material to derive the exact differences in weight and stiffness.

Basically, the s-works is lighter and the expert is stiffer, but whether anyone without 454big blocks for legs would notice the stiffness difference is questionable.

I would like to see a frame built with 1130g(minus weight of finish) of 9m material or 1282g of 10m material, then compare stiffness to, respectively, a s-works frame or an expert frame.

**note: this is all based upon the data provided above, which may not even be correct for all I know**

 

[582fresh]

actually, this data means the s-works frame has inferior stiffness since they have the same 77 (Nm/deg)/kg. The S-works has 77(Nm/deg)/Kg*1.130Kg which equals 87.01Nm/deg while the expert has 77(Nm/deg)/Kg*1.282Kg which equals 98.71Nm/deg.

Since, according to the data you provided, they have the same stiffness/weight ratio, the sworks basically sacrifices some stiffness to save weight. It's tempting to conclude that the differences in the composite technology within the two frames are nonexistent given the identical stiffness/weight ratio, but there are confounding factors such as frame design and lay-up process which likely create a non-linear relationship between amount of material in Kg and stiffness in Nm/deg. Another interesting confounding factor is that after the two frames are baked, they will receive (most likely) an identical amount of clear coat and/or finishing resin, which skews the calculations since you would have to subtract the weight of the finishing material to derive the exact differences in weight and stiffness.

Basically, the s-works is lighter and the expert is stiffer, but whether anyone without 454big blocks for legs would notice the stiffness difference is questionable.

I would like to see a frame built with 1130g(minus weight of finish) of 9m material or 1282g of 10m material, then compare stiffness to, respectively, a s-works frame or an expert frame.

**note: this is all based upon the data provided above, which may not even be correct for all I know**

sounds right when you really think about it. all the stats i listed are from specialized's 29er press release