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pedal up
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
hey all... i'll be putting together a 2010 Knolly Derilium as an AM / psuedo-FR bike. my delima is:

??? cane creek double barrel - vs - fox dhx 5.0 air ???​

basically want this bike to be able to ride to the top and then its all about pointing down. (it wont be much about shuttling uP). i'll be decking it out light but strong: Marzocchi 66 RC3 Ti - XTR - XT - ZTR Flow - King - Thompson - Twenty - etc - and will ? probably ti out the ccdb spring ?.

i know the propedal option is the deal for reducing sag for the climbs - and i love the climbs and am all about the pedaling up&about - (like really isn't a bike meant to be ridden !!?!! ) - but i really want that plush plush plush downthehill confidence 'n ride.

fyi: i'm a 45 yr old crusty geaser who's just getting into the sport - (i'll pay someone big $$$ to get 10years back) - will be honing my skills on Burnaby Mtn and then tumbling down the North Shore.

thanks so for your time and consideration,
Todd
 

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Ccdb

I think 99.9% of the answers will be CCDB. There are just too many complaints with the DHX Air, although I have heard it works pretty well with the DT. With the Marz. coil up front, I think the CCDB is the way to go.

In many circumstances a properly tuned coil shock will climb just as well if not better than an air shock. On smooth fire road climbs the air shock will probably win out but on technical climbs I really like the feel of coil.

Save yourself the time and money and get the CCDB coil now.

Merry Christmas. Sounds like a nice ride.

TG
 

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G-AIR said:
I think 99.9% of the answers will be CCDB. There are just too many complaints with the DHX Air, although I have heard it works pretty well with the DT. With the Marz. coil up front, I think the CCDB is the way to go.

In many circumstances a properly tuned coil shock will climb just as well if not better than an air shock. On smooth fire road climbs the air shock will probably win out but on technical climbs I really like the feel of coil.

Save yourself the time and money and get the CCDB coil now.

Merry Christmas. Sounds like a nice ride.

TG
i agree with that,

that said you should also consider an ELKA shock. i've been very happy with mine on my Am bike this summer...
 

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www.derbyrims.com
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Knolly bikes luv the CCDB and other high end coil shocks. The suspension has rising rate leverage and are designed for coil shocks. Air would be a compromise but still work well. While riding you don't feel the coil weight difference and the ride quality and traction is much improved with coil.

Call CC they work very closely with Knolly and will give you a near perfect recommendation for spring and damper settings to start with.

Afterthought: If you have never ridden air suspension, maybe try it and if not totally satisfied then switch to coil to really appreciate the quality improvement.

Keep riding, you will loose 10 years of age in 6 months!
 

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Elitest thrill junkie
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I have a different take than Derby.

Lots of companies offer the DHX Air 5.0. All of them claim it works "great" on their bikes. Very few actually do. Air shocks, especially the high-volume DHX Air have a flat mid-stroke, this coupled with a lack of damping makes it wallow excessively, blow through travel, and so on- on pretty much ANY bike. Go read the reviews of people who have switched, even on the Knolly board.

It really makes me wonder why manufactures continue to push the DHX Air. It's a turd. (Yes, I've extensively ridden/owned one). I found it did exactly what I said above when I ran it. Go read some reviews for it or search for the topic on the boards. You'll quickly see it's widespread.

The CCDB is decent, but knolly seems to have a hard-on for that shock. They don't ever suggest any high end coil other than the CCDB. On truly custom coil shocks, you can vary the IFP depth, elastomer hardness/shape, nitrogen charge, damping curve (not just amount, but the actual shim-stack to get the desired curve), and so on. Many of these parameters are not possible with the CCDB. It's a "one-size-fits-all" shock, which is great for manufacturers, but realize you can get even better performance with custom tuned stuff. Elka is semi-custom, Push does full custom (new high-flow pistons, bottom-out, more complex high/low speed circuts, etc), and Avalanche does full custom. I'm running two Avalanche shocks right now and they are simply amazing in terms of control and damping. While I'm not suggesting everyone buys an Avalanche, I am suggesting that custom tuned shocks are always going to outperform one-size-fits-all shocks. Some may be better than others, but Knolly is locked in the OEM market and with their CCDB "partenership" I don't think they can mention anything other than CCDB, but there is most certainly more out there. A Pushed Rocco or DHX/MX/vanilla coil is a great upgrade. An Elka is a great upgrade. A BOS should be a great upgrade, a 5th element/swinger that is gutted and fitted with Avalanche internals (relatively inexpensive) is a great upgrade. An Avalanche shock is a great upgrade.

The DHX Air is not great, and IF the bike was REALLY designed to use the DHX Air, you probably could not run a coil because the linkage rate would have to make up for the air-shock's changing progression through the stroke. You'd get some funky behavior most likely when you try to put a coil on it. Usually bikes are a compramise though and with the DHX Air, you have to compramise more.
 

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pedal up
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
i'm a tech junkie with the best of them... though in my infancy when it comes to rear suspension. homework, homework, homework.

i had been told by a very reputable source that for climbing, as i had mentioned the propedal - shall i call it stiffining with a flick of a switch - was a huge benefit compared to the relatively once-set-than-pretty-much-fixed sag of a coil... it'll overly sink you + further slackening the head tube angle... all making for a less than favourable climbing position. (i'm probably way off in many a description / uneducated assumption).

much to learn... thanks so much for the eye opening.

??? is there that perfect coil shock that is simply THE BEST SHOCK available for my all over the mountain - tamed free ride needs... i'll customize the @#$% out of it... i'll lighten it with ti... i'm willing to spend the money...

just want that perfect bike !

(damn, i'm that old greying wrinkly dude sitt'n behind the ferrari's cockpit... (always thought a thoroughbred should be driven by a teenager in her prime)).
 

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I think you are getting some great info. here. JAYEM gave you some great info to think about and research.

If your decision is between the DHX Air and CCDB, go for the CCDB. If you are looking into all options, start researching the names Jayem posted above. I am a big fan of the Avalanche shocks as well. PUSH has some nice options as well.

As far as climbing with a coil shock there are adjustments you can make to the shock that improve climbing while still giving you the plushness on the DH. The top end shocks have external adjustments for hi/low speed compression, rebound, and bottom out resistance. When set up properly you shouldn't have to compromise on the climbs.

Judging by your posts and your enthusiams I would definitely check out Avalanche. There website is a bit dated but give Craig a call and talk to him. His shocks and custom tuning are definitely at the top of the list.

We have great choices these days, so whatever you end up with you will be stoked.

TG

biobike said:
i'm a tech junkie with the best of them... though in my infancy when it comes to rear suspension. homework, homework, homework.

i had been told by a very reputable source that for climbing, as i had mentioned the propedal - shall i call it stiffining with a flick of a switch - was a huge benefit compared to the relatively once-set-than-pretty-much-fixed sag of a coil... it'll overly sink you + further slackening the head tube angle... all making for a less than favourable climbing position. (i'm probably way off in many a description / uneducated assumption).

much to learn... thanks so much for the eye opening.

??? is there that perfect coil shock that is simply THE BEST SHOCK available for my all over the mountain - tamed free ride needs... i'll customize the @#$% out of it... i'll lighten it with ti... i'm willing to spend the money...

just want that perfect bike !

(damn, i'm that old greying wrinkly dude sitt'n behind the ferrari's cockpit... (always thought a thoroughbred should be driven by a teenager in her prime)).
 

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Apples to...hmmm....I dont even know what. I am not sure these are close enough to even really compare.

Apart from what some of the homers think about the CCDB (IMO a good chunk of those guys WAY overthink things and are more into anything new, than exacting or understand the benefits of something that is not cool with the (turner) masses)...the CCDB is truely unique in design (smaller version of arguably the best road moto shock) and a significant upgrade from any damper from the OEM guys. It feels a bit different than many other dampers (especially at low speed) and trying to get 'no damping, old marz fork' feel will not work and will result in some bad things. It is all about chassis control.

You should also know that the current version of the ccdb has a wider range of damping (able to decrease further) than the versions that the homers collectively decided was not cool. This was done specifically for very low leverage rate frames...but can also allow more of the light/underdamped feel for less agressive riding or personal desire.

No doubt, between the two shocks mentioned...the CCDB is orders of magnitude better (in design, implementation, quality, feel, etc). I have owned and ridden both....the DHX air is LONG gone.

Jayem, I find it a little funny the way you relate Noel's feelings about the CCDB. If you were going to be honest however, you would have used your name instead, and been talking about the Avalance. You are getting as bad as shiver me timbers WRT marzocchi products.......

Now I would agree that there are some SIGNIFICANT benefits to custom shocks (own a couple myself). They certainly have the potential to be the best solution..but there are some significant down sides as well....

MANY people are not able to describe what they want a shock to do, what their current set-up is not able to do, nor have any corelation/knowledge as to the possible benefits to the changes they think they want(ie soft and squishy will most likely be less fast than a firmer, less parking lot friendly tune). IMO, if as a rider, one is not able to solidly describe the desired changes and anticipated benefits, a custom shock is a not much more than e-braging rights.

Second, a custom tune is specific to rider weight, frame design, and spring rate. Change any of these parameters, and the shock will likely need to go back to the mfg and be re tuned ($). Selling the shock, changing frames, changing speed/agressiveness. loosing or gaining weight will all require more cash spent by someone.

The CCDB may not be able to achieve quite the customization of an Avalanche, Push, etc, but it's range of adjustements is VASTLY wider (both good and bad), allowing the shock to go from rough agressive fat guy on a V10, to slow timid guy on a Makulu with little more than a spring change and turn of the knobs.....AND be one of the best rides on either of those bikes.
 

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I don't know that much about shocks, but I do know this: The DHX-Air 5.0 I had was a turd. Honestly, if you're considering an air shock, I'd take a simple RP23 over the DHX every day.
 

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I just buildt up a DT as well and had the same questions. however, I was considering the Fox Coil or CCDB. Since I am about 6'2 240 and like to go fast and drop, i went with the Fox b/c of the bottom out platform. CC and Elka do not have the bottom out resistance.

of course im a little biased since that is what i ride, but i couldnt be happier with my decision.
 

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davep said:
Jayem, I find it a little funny the way you relate Noel's feelings about the CCDB. If you were going to be honest however, you would have used your name instead, and been talking about the Avalance. You are getting as bad as shiver me timbers WRT marzocchi products........
He is just upset that Knolly doesnt offer Avalanche OEM the way Turner does.
 

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Elitest thrill junkie
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davep said:
The CCDB may not be able to achieve quite the customization of an Avalanche, Push, etc, but it's range of adjustements is VASTLY wider (both good and bad), allowing the shock to go from rough agressive fat guy on a V10, to slow timid guy on a Makulu with little more than a spring change and turn of the knobs.....AND be one of the best rides on either of those bikes.
I don't quite agree. The range of TUNING with something like the Avalanche or Push MX tune is vastly wider, in the sense that there's only so much you can adjust with the CCDB. Sure, it has a good range with those adjusters, but as I said, there are many parameters you can not tune, and having a usable tuning range is a lot more important than having a huge unsuable tuning range. As I said before, you can't alter the damping curve, only the amount of damping, with the CCDB. Of course, CCDB has the marketing power of Cane Creek...
 

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Elitest thrill junkie
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006_007 said:
He is just upset that Knolly doesnt offer Avalanche OEM the way Turner does.
WTF?

Turner doesn't offer Avalanche OEM, why are you making stuff up?

My point is that the user should consider the following shocks, and not just the $700 CCDB, in fact there are arguably quite a few advantages with these over the CCDB:

Fox RC4
Roco with Push tune
DHX with Push tune
Vanilla with Push tune
DHX/Vanilla with Push MX tune (if they ever offer it again)
5th element with Avalanche tune
Avalanche DHS
Avalanche Chubbie
BOS
Elka

Some of these have a huge bang-for-the buck factor, in terms of being able to pick up a 5th element or Fox DHX/vanilla for cheap and then send it to the appropriate shock tuning company. What these guys usually do is they gut the shock, install most of their own internals and usually allow for far greater fluid flow under high-speed hits, tune the IFP height, put the appropriate bottom-out bumper on there, and so on. You get something back that is a huge step above what you started with, and save a ton of money compared to a brand new Avalanche or CCDB.
 

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Elitest thrill junkie
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davep said:
Apart from what some of the homers think about the CCDB (IMO a good chunk of those guys WAY overthink things and are more into anything new, than exacting or understand the benefits of something that is not cool with the (turner) masses)...the CCDB is truely unique in design (smaller version of arguably the best road moto shock) and a significant upgrade from any damper from the OEM guys. It feels a bit different than many other dampers (especially at low speed) and trying to get 'no damping, old marz fork' feel will not work and will result in some bad things. It is all about chassis control.
I'm not sure why you think the CCDB is vastly different in terms of low-speed feel than any custom shock out there. I've had a few avalanches now, as well as many other shocks, I've ridden quite a few pushed shocks, and yes, some of these had slower low-speed rebound circuts with more low-speed compression damping. The very best of these still transitioned to the high-speed circuts well with the added low-speed damping. I am not sure what you are trying to say here, but what you are describing is no different than anything I've encountered with any other high-end shock. Better damping control, better chassi stability, little to no effect on high-speed traits.
 

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Jayem said:
WTF?

Turner doesn't offer Avalanche OEM, why are you making stuff up?
.
Glad that got your attention. I know they dont offer it OEM and nor does Knolly.

So my question back to you (which you have conveniently avoided) is in regards to this statement:

Jayem said:
The CCDB is decent, but knolly seems to have a hard-on for that shock. They don't ever suggest any high end coil other than the CCDB. .
Knolly does offer other coils as oem options, but for whatever reasons the CCDB overall is a better fit for these bikes.

Fair enough, if you purchase one of the others, and get it custom tuned, you could be happier.but from a oem standpoint the ccdb works exceptionally well on the knolly bikes.

How is that a hard-on?

FWIW I do have a 5th element that has been gutted / modded by someone in vancouver - and i am very happy with the results. a nice backup shock.
 

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Elitest thrill junkie
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006_007 said:
Knolly does offer other coils as oem options, but for whatever reasons the CCDB overall is a better fit for these bikes.
I didn't say other coils, I said other high end coils. I think when we start talking about the full-spread of what is offered we see quite a bit of variance, from a DHX to a Roco to a Vivid, but apart from those there are the Elka, Bos, Avalanche, CCDB, and so on. It's not even that these aren't offered, it's just that they are never suggested. As I said originally, I'm just trying to get those suggestions out there.
 

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Jayem said:
I didn't say other coils, I said other high end coils. I think when we start talking about the full-spread of what is offered we see quite a bit of variance, from a DHX to a Roco to a Vivid, but apart from those there are the Elka, Bos, Avalanche, CCDB, and so on. It's not even that these aren't offered, it's just that they are never suggested. As I said originally, I'm just trying to get those suggestions out there.
hmmm, you have obviously had a very different conversation with Noel then I have had. We covered pretty much every shock out there (Yes, your "high end" ones as well).

So are you comparing a CCDB to Elka, Bos, Avalanche, or are you comparing the CCDB to DHX/Roco/Vivid or are you comparing CCDB to custom tuned DHX/Roco/Vivid?

And you still have not explained your hard-on comment. Step up to the plate man.
 

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Jayem
I've found myself disagreeing with you in the past with regards your CCDB bashing(although I've experienced the same symptoms with it you have if I remember right. mainly HS spiking?). Glad to see you've toned it down a bit. I have to agree with you that there's loads of quality options out there. Most of which will no doubt tie the likes of the OP in knots either trying to set it up(CCDB) or explain to a custom tuner what he wants from a custom tuned whatever. At this stage of the game I'm sure he'll be ecstaic with any decent coil. Especially if comparing to the likes of the DHX-A!

slightly OT, have you tried the new modified CCDB yet? I've not long fitted one so still farting about with it but the extra flow through the HS poppets should help solve the previous issues.

the CCDB is not untunable either from a custom point of view. Stendec here in the UK will custom tune them but you really need to know what you need fixing(not sure what all they do but I know they can modify the shim stack). Otherwise they rate it pretty highly as stock
 

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Elitest thrill junkie
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006_007 said:
hmmm, you have obviously had a very different conversation with Noel then I have had. We covered pretty much every shock out there (Yes, your "high end" ones as well).

So are you comparing a CCDB to Elka, Bos, Avalanche, or are you comparing the CCDB to DHX/Roco/Vivid or are you comparing CCDB to custom tuned DHX/Roco/Vivid?

And you still have not explained your hard-on comment. Step up to the plate man.
I don't explain things that seem obvious or that are already being explained, the "hard on" comment means that he doesn't suggest other shocks, possibly has an agreement with CCDB to do so, never mentions other high end shocks or options on the Knolly board (maybe you can point me to some examples) and so on. It's basically what I've been saying all along. I'm really lost on how I'm not "stepping up to the plate"?
 
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