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Cane Creek Double Barrel is it!!!!!

20K views 172 replies 31 participants last post by  aappling72 
#1 ·
I bought a Cane Creek Double Barrel to go on my Intense Uzzi. I have ridden avalanche for a while now, but this thing truly is amazing. It is so supple, but at the same time handles the high impact like butter. It really is incredible. After adjusting with the low speed compression and low speed rebound, I was able to find a spot where small bump sensitivity was off the charts and still the bike pedalled like a 3" travel rig. I really am convinced that this shock will improve the handling of any bike. I will post some pics and follow commentary after some more ride time.
 
Discussion starter · #173 ·
pin-it said:
I'm still up in the air as to wether these are worth the price tag for a mtb.
It is pricey indeed. However, it will dramatically imporve the way your bike handles at speed and over technical terrain. It gives you alot of extra added control that you won't know your missing until you ride it and then ride something else. If you are toying with the idea, then go ahead and get one.
 
Discussion starter · #168 ·
D-Rock said:
Hey aappling72, did we talk at the benches before the gravel hell climb at Chicopee on Sat.?

I was replacing the derailleur hanger on my Ventana and we talked about the CCDB & the time I rode your VP-Free at the Big Creek FR section a few years ago.

If so, I just never made the connection to the screen name until now.

D.
Yep, that's me. Hope you got your hanger fixed. Sorry I had to leave, but had to get home.
 
Discussion starter · #165 ·
Merrimack Dave said:
That's true, and I'd buy another one, I also drive a Toyota. :) I'm not against overseas production at all, my only objection is the prevailing notion these days that minimum wage workers are somehow representitive of the average dumb American who can't even assemble a shock. There are plenty of level headed guys who put in a good days work, but they can't work for peanuts.

Just to clarify Warp2003, I'm not even mad in the least bud, just sharing an opinion. I've learned an enormous ammount of information about shocks from bmadau and a few others in this thread.

Sorry to throw a wrench into what is one of my favorite threads of the year, I'll probably end up with a Double Barrel before the snow stops falling, sounds like possibly one of the best shocks in a while. Now where the hell do they make those. :D

Lets get back to the CCDB.
Well, Ohlins is a Swedish company, but they have a US Headquarters located in Fletcher North Carolina, that is just a few miles from the Cane Creek Facility. As far as assembly of the CCDB, it is assembled in the Cane Creek facility in Fletcher NC. They even do alot of the machining their of reducers and such. So, hope that helps.
 
Discussion starter · #137 · (Edited)
SpawningGround said:
Isn't that "somewhere" on the back end of the piston?

If that check valve on the rebound size is large enough, then why would there be any increase in IFP or displacment in the body?

From what I see, the shock requires the area behind the piston's compression side to be filled with oil in order for the rebound to work. This area fills with ease under compression due to the check valve. If the check valve has better oil flow than the compresison damper circuit, then there is no significant pressure "BEING ADDED". The stock set IFP could be insanely high with the charge, yet not have much effect on the oil flow. I still don't see how the nitrogen chamber is being compressed in regards to BOTH shock speed and shock position.

Under hard compression all of the added IFP is contained between the piston and the compression damper valves. "IF" the check valves are adequately large enough, the oil will pass the compression circuit and flow into the back end of the piston where the displacement is compensated. "IF" the check valves resist oil flow more than the dampers then the nitrogen chamber will compress and increase IFP in the sector.

Then there's also the shims on the piston allowing for oil blow off.

I guess what it comes down to, is how much volume/sec the check valves can move. As of now, do any of us know this value?

It's funny how worked up some people get when a new product of "clear superiority" gets questioned about its intended purposes. If your DH/FR rig calls for a linear shock, then great it may be worth the $5-600. That still doesn't change the fact that most other bikes for FR esp. require progressive shocks that don't rely on damping to prevent bottom out on high force, long duration impacts.

Using a linear shock for DH can be good because they mostly see high impact low duration hits. When riding through rock gardens at high speeds, the compresison damping will be effective in reducing travel use.

In freeriding we see more harsh but longer duration impacts. Often, not even at high speeds. We also like to have a plush suspension in terms of damping because of the often less manicured terrain. It's hard to have a compliant suspension on small and medium stuff whent the damping is turned way up to to reduce travel use on hard but slower speed hits. A drop requires much more compression damping to reduce travel use than a high speed square edge hit. Freeriders want to have a suspension that's smooth on square edged hits at fast speeds while also being resistant to drops.
Understood, but the cane Creek allows for that. I am not a diagram interpreter, but I have ridden the shock on agressive singletrack, jumps, and drops that are the type you spoke of, slow harsh landings. All of which were on the same trail. Not once after dialing in the shock, have I had to account for needing more dampening on the bigger stuff while lossing the small bump sensitivity that I love about the shock. It is very controlled in landing. This drop was only about 6 ft, but there wasn't a great transition so it would have normally given me a scare if I didn't adjust the rebound to be slower and bump the compression, or Bottom Out adjuster on competitor shocks. So, diagrams have their place and serve their purpose for those who are qualified to not only interpret them, but know how to make the changes necessary to affect what is happening in that diagram, in comes Ohlins. Pretty high class, high quality company when it comes to suspension. On the other hand there is the real world or actually riding the product and feeling what it's doing under you compared to other products. That is ultimately what matters! IMO this shock can handle the duties of any bike. Progressive, linear, rising, falling, whatever. The dampening in this shock can be tuned to accomodate them. It is that adjustable. Have I ridden it on every bike? NO, but, from talking to CC, and knowing what it feels like in comparison to past products used, I really have a hard time thinking that any other shock can offer the performance this does, and at the same time allow a rider to personally, tune his shock for whatever riding style without having to have a revalve to get dialed in specifically. Not a rant, just the fact that I've ridden it and can speak from experience, not a diagram.
 
Discussion starter · #134 ·
SCUBAPRO said:
Just measured the sag, 500# spring, no preload, 145# rider (in gear): sag = 17mm (34%). Shock is very well behaved landing 3-4 foot to flat. Definitely smooths out chatter bumps and rockgardens. Feels like the rear wheel is glued to the ground (Just FYI: That's what I thought of my PUSH'd vanilla RC, too. This was on an UZZI SLX). I, however, noticed a bit of spiking on braking bumps on single track. Will open the HS compression all the way to see if it takes care of that or I may need a softer spring. I am very pleased with this shock overall and adjustability is just awesome as you can tranfer shock to different bikes with different leverage ratios and be able to tune it without internal revalve.

Just in case anyone is wondering about weights, here it is:
7.5 x 2.0 CCDB
shock only, no reducers = 390g
shock with 500# spring & reducers = 850g

Also weighed my 7.5x2 DHX-c for comparison, shock only w/ reducers = 360g.

All weighed using an Alpine Digital Scale.
SCUBA, I think your on a pack? If so, this happened to me with the DHX and Avy. I really think that is something native to the pack, maybe not for everyone, but the few that I've talked to riding packs and 5 spots have said that the smaller braking bumps or even just riding over roots gave some loss of traction, I noticed on mine as well. The CCDB, though on my Uzzi I had, and now on the 6.6 hasn't given me any of that. Super smooth, and I agree with you drops are so controlled on the landings. It actually makes my Z1 feel springy now. Rumor has it that CC is working with Ohlins on a fork. CANNOT WAIT! Anyway, I would open the LS speed compression and rebound a little if it doesn't mess up the way you like it to pedal. I opened( backed it off) mine up 3 clicks from the factory setting. I did it one click at a time, and now it is perfect. Could be the spring, but according to CC the spring is independent of valving, so I just think you need to keep tinkering one click at a time to get it right. Good Luck! Merry Christmas!!
 
Discussion starter · #121 ·
SCUBAPRO said:
aappling72, I'm not yet ready to say it is mind blowing but it certainly makes the Pike's damping seem harsh. It would be nice if I could match the DB with a PUSH'd Pike to see if that takes care of the harshness. Or hopefully, I get my 36 back, then I can compare.

Jayem, I just increased the spring rate to 500lbs. Stock on a small Pack is 400# = 50% sag. I also have a 450# spring which gives me about 40%. I have not measured the sag with the 500# but I reckon it should be around 30%. I will verify and post back.

SfJH and Warp, CC told me that the shims are on the stiff side and are for really high speed shaft velocities. It should not allow oil through the main piston unless you are doing drops or going really fast through a rockgarden. You basically have to overwhelm the Compression poppet valve to engage the shim stack. So the damping is supposed to be mainly controlled by the poppet and needle valves on the reservoir (external adjusters).

Here's the Dynamometer chart from the QC testing of my DB:
SO if I understand correctly, this dyno chart that I have and you have with you shock is basically saying that the as the shock compresses the shock rate stays the same and doesn't fall off. I know that is an elementary way of saying it. But I am I close in that assumption?
 
Discussion starter · #116 ·
SCUBAPRO said:
Here it is...I've only riden it once so I can't really comment too much or give a comprehensive review as I still need to dial it in. My inital impressions are:

Parking Lot: shock feels scarry plush (factory settings). I can compress the rear pushing down on the saddle with 2 fingers. I was a bit concerned it would bob like crazy yet it did not.

On the trail:

Stock setting - rear feels firm, no bobing whatsover yet remains sensitive to small/low speed bumps. Shock feels firm going through rockgarden at about 25mph.

Modified settings (backed out HC knob 1 turn, backed out LC screw 2 clicks from factory settings) - still no bob, much plusher going through same rockgarden and braking bumps.

CCDB v DHX-C: It is certainly in a whole different league than the stock DHX-C. The DB feels so much plusher and the platform deifinitely works better than the DHX. The DHX spiked during high speed impacts and it had too much platform IMHO (just too harsh on slow speed situations). CCDB is better in all aspects.

Complaint: It made my Pike Team feel like crap!!! :D I'm not joking, it honestly did! I want my PUSH'd 36 back...
So has your mind been blown at the way this thing feels? It even makes my Zocchi 66 Light not feel as plush as it once did. I wish I could get CCDB Fork. Which I hear is being talked about. Anyway, maybe once a few more of us get on here posting the results that you and I are experiencing people will start to belieive it really is an awesome shock. Enjoy and Merry Christmas. Keep me updated.
 
Discussion starter · #105 ·
Warp2003 said:
No, I haven't had Shock cereal, I drew my conclusions from the article from Descent on CC's page.... but I have had enough P&ID's (Piping and Instrumentation Diagrams) cereal from working with hydraulic devices.

Gimme a P&ID and I'll tell you how it works. The pic Steve posted makes good enough for a P&ID for a shock. Shocks are conceptually complex but hydraulically simple devices. It's just a bunch of metering valves in a rather simple arrangement but its calculation and implementation is where the trick is at. That said, I could tell how a shock works like, but I just can't calculate one, let alone modding one. Maybe some day.
I hope you know I was just kidding with you on the cereal thing. I appreciate you input here. ScubaPro will have his shortly on his pack. So it will be interesting to see what he thinks about it.
 
Discussion starter · #101 ·
Warp2003 said:
Not because you're saying I'm right... but I agree with you Steve.

I haven't seen more precise schematics of the shock, let alone a shock teared open, but it seems that what's normally done by a bleed port on the shock shaft, is now made by the twin tube (double barrel) design. So the advantage, as you say, is that all the oil flowing thru the shock is metered at the reservoir head by the valves, and tweaked there. But the rest of the shock, including the IFP functions are the same.

I could be wrong though... I'm no expert.

Maybe Bmadau, Dougal or Darren himself could explain better all of this.
I think you are on to something Warp. Sound like you have been eating suspension cereal and reading the tech info on the back of the box. JK LOL!!! That sounds right. I think anybody interested or confused should just call Ohlins or Cane Creek. I think that Ducati and all the other major high end brands have engineers way smarter than any of us on here that know what they're doing and could answer any questions we have.
 
Discussion starter · #96 ·
SpawningGround said:
By all means, the CCDB is by far the most advanced damper you can buy for a frame. I don't doubt its incredible ability to react instantly and smoothly to all bumps.

I was just trying to point out that it might be a bad idea to put a bunch of money down on one for frames requiring extremely progressive shocks.

For most trail riding and drops, having a linear suspension is not going to make you bottom out. The Romic D I had was pretty linear and I could bottom it on flat drops, but for real riding over rocks and drops with landings I never once bottomed it out. But with my new bike that has a DHX5 coil, I can drop just about as big to flat as I want and not hit bottom.
What type of frame are you riding? It's funny , I really think that different DHX's are valved differently from the factory. At one point I had 2 DHX's and one of my friends. with the spring off and all settings set the same, each of them reacted differently when compressed on the frame. Really strange I thought, but that's where getting one Pushed comes into play I guess. Same thing with the 5th Element, w/o the spring it was way overdamped (the "dead feeling") the manitou was a little more lively and the Avy felt better than all of those. So, I was just giving the CCDB a try before I put another Avy on the Uzzi, and well, the rest of the story you know . CCDB on both the Uzzi and 6.6 now. I have ridden the CCDB on a DEMO 8 and it felt amazing on it as well. Two completely different frame designs same performance on both. Pretty versatile. I think, but I'm just plain stupid when it comes to some things. I just go by feel most of the time.
 
Discussion starter · #95 ·
I don't know man, falling, rising, progressive, linear. The shokc feels good on my Uzzi, that's what it boils down to to me. The Avalanche I had on a 6 pack didn't feel good. It was tuned how I asked Craig to tune it. But to make it pedal friendly it had poor small bump, but ended the stroke nicely. All I know is that according to Cane Creek the CCDB is suppose to be completely tuneable for whatever riding conditions you are in XC, FR, or DH. I would call Malcolm, or maybe I'll call him on Monday and have him read these posts and either chime in, or giveme some insight to you guys.

As for the comment the CCDB is only for trail type geeks, that is a statement that I would accept only from someone that has ridden the shock and has some substance to base their opinion on. I respect your knowledge on the subject, but all the paperwork and diagrams in the world don't change the fact that the shock feels like butter on every type of terrain I've ridden, and I don't just ride trails. I drop and jump and hit rock gardens full speed as well. So, I would encourage you to get one to ride and then I would love to hear your comparison of perception based on knowledge vs. physical ride time experience. Cool?
 
Discussion starter · #89 ·
I don't know man. Some of this stuff gets over my head. I just know what feels good when I'm riding, and want adjustments I make to make a difference if I need them too and the CCDB does that. Guess that's about all I can say.
 
Discussion starter · #88 ·
SpawningGround said:
on the other hand, frame makers will be able to design shock linkages around the CCDB. It wouldn't take more than a super progressive linkage to remedy the lack of.

But as it stands now, I don't think many super progressive DH and FR bikes are designed around linear shocks, so upgrading to the CCDB may be a bad idea for those frames.

It very possible for a frame maker to adopt the CCDB with the right type of linkage, so I don't think we've seen the most this shock really has to offer yet.

I would imagine this damping system is used in car racing for one reason only. It provides a NO SLOP damping system. There is pretty much no lag in damping when the shock goes from compression stroke to rebound stroke. When going 160mph down a section of road, even the smallest 2mm bump makes a huge impact on your vehicle. In order to have a damper precise enough to engage on such a small bump ther must be no play or wiggle room AT ALL in the damper. Most other dampers would be able to damp the compression stroke on a 2mm hit, but the lag time in the rebound circuit engaging would cause the damper to be inefective in damping the rebound phase of a small hit. If the rebound circuit engaged instantly like the CCDB then it would be a great improvement on small but high speed bumps.
Well, I appreciate your obvious knowledge of suspension. But I have to say having ride time on it and having done some 5-6 footers, on some XC courses the seperate High Speed compression adjustment serves the purpose your describing needed to make the shocks spring curve nose real hard in the last part of the shocks stroke with out compromising small bump compliance. You could talk to Malcolm at Cane Creek to get more detail, but from my small amount of experience and knowledge on the shock, the low and high speed compression valving are completely independent of each other. If you want great small bump compliance release the low speed compression a little, and at the same time if you need it to ramp up near the end of the strokeTurn in the High Speed Compression adjuster so that the poppet valve opens quicker to give you more progressivity in the shock. That is what they told me and after going off the same 5 foot drop that had a real rooty run in several times and adjusting different things the bike ate up the stutter stuff and felt super smooth on the not so transitional landing. So, I'm not sure how to completely interpret the diagram, but I do know what I want the shock to feel like on rough high speed bumps and then for drops as well. I've never ridden a shock that felt so supple and quick responding on small stutter bumps that I didn't have to get off and slow down the rebound and stiffen the compression for that big drop or jump. It was either one or the other. This shock has allowed me to get the suppleness, and then have that control on the big stuff. I think Ohlins has really hit the nail on the head with this. I'm not saying there isn't room for improvement, there is always room for that. But, as for what I think is the best performing shock on the market right now, they have got it down. I know a Pro rider for Specialized (Chris Hernodon) that rides a CCDB on his DEMO 8 DH race bike, and this guy is incredibly fast, and he swears by his as well. He said he's never ridden something that performs so well with with one setting that works on multiple terrains. Which he credits to the separate adjustability of the high/low compression rebound settings. To me, like you said, the real world test is where the truth is found, and after having ridden Avalanche, Fox, manitou, Progressive, I have to say this shock feels the best. I will continue to put it to the test with some more aggressive drops and jumps and rooty rocky stuff to see how it performs. Thanks for your post. Call Malcolm, with your knowledge I'm sure you could shed some info I haven't thought of or know about.
 
Discussion starter · #83 ·
No problem. If you've followed the thread you will know the the CCDB is modeled after the Ohlins TTX40. There are only 5 adjustments.

1- High Speed compression
2 - Low Speed Compression
3 - High Speed rebound
4 - Low Speed Rebound
5 - Spring Preload

Everything else is internally set up at Cane Creek via Ohlins specs on a dyno before it ever leaves them to come to you. They check when it is built and let it sit over night and then check it again the next day to make sure there is no leaking over night. The internal settings are based on bike leverage, weight, etc... The dyno curve must meet there requirements or they take it apart and rebuild it. Very Cool I think. Also, this shock is being used in Formula 1 racing, the actual double barrel shock Cane Creek is building for Formula 1 race cars. They are raving about it saying that they can now tune the cars for each track without having to have separate shocks that are vavled for each track. That is the cool thing about this shock to me. A Pushed DHX or Avalanche are valved specifically for one style that you have to have compromise with on deifferent types of terrain. The CCDB is internally vavled so that theexternal adjustments allow the rider to dial in the perfect setting from XC to FR/DH. As a matter of fact I haven't had to change mine from the setting I was using in an Aggressive XC setting for drops. The high and low speed rebound really help with this by allowing the small bumps to stay supple by having a faster rebound, while not bucking me off on drops that don't have the best transition. It is really cool that this technology is available to mtn bikes. If you are stuck on which shock to buy, I promise you won't be disappointed. If you were, you wouldn't have a problem selling it because once more people start getting on these everyone will be on here posting about how awesome they are. Hope this helps.

P.S. I am not sponsored by Cane Creek either. I paid reetail for mine. It is just that good.
 
Discussion starter · #81 ·
Merrimack Dave said:
Does Cane Creek make a 7.5 by 2 Double Barrel?
Yes, ScubaPro just ordered one for his pack. Call Malcolm at Cane Creek @ 800.234.2725 and tell him I sent ya and he will take care of you. He will answer any questions you have.
 
Discussion starter · #77 ·
peachy-B said:
aappIing72,

I have a size small VPX and i think u know how close the DHX that comes w/ it comes real close to the downtube... 1-2mm while on the medium i think it's about 4-5mm. do u think the CCDB will fit on my small? Thx. :D
I think so. I actually turned mine around so that the res was at the opposite end near the seat tube. Ithink it would fit. There seems to be plenty of room on mine. I'll take some pics after I clean it up from a messy ride.
 
Discussion starter · #69 ·
Warp2003 said:
And a scanned image of the dyno chart that comes with it... Sorry, bike geek over here!! :D
I'll get some images of my shock & Dyno chart up as well. This time of year is just so dang busy.

I think it is so cool that they take the time to test each one before it leaves the building. Malcolm is a great guy and super helpful. I am really looking forward to hearing how you like it SCUBABPRO. Especially on the pack. Hopefully it transforms that bike into a little more plush feeling ride in the beginning travel. I know SSINGA is anxiously waiting on your results posts. I'm sure you're gonna love it. Let me know. My CCDB should be here by the middle of next week for my 6.6. The bike arrives on thursday so I'll have a couple of days to ride it with the DHX-Air so I can compare the feel to the CCDB when it gets here.
 
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