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since 4/10/2009
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Maybe there is little left where you live, but out here wilderness, monuments, and national parks are everywhere.

A place like Escalante is huge. There is no reason why there could not be hundreds of miles of single track available for riding around the red rock. There are already dirt roads through the area. That does not mean MTB use would be allowed everywhere in Escalante, but that type of distance would be tiny part of the total space.
The presence of bikes or not definitely doesn't make or break "wilderness". I've seen Wilderness areas all across the spectrum. The ones where I live now tend to have crowding issues as it is from folks who just want to hike them. A permit system to keep crowds down makes a lot of sense for crowded Wilderness areas. I see traffic levels in general as a bigger issue than what users are out there. I think what makes more sense from a management perspective is to look at trail density and use levels in the context of management goals. Frontcountry areas should permit higher trail densities and use levels. The more "backcountry" a place gets, the lower trail densities should be (with bigger distances involved) and the more land managers should consider permitting systems to limit the number of users at a given time.

I used to live fairly close to some Wilderness areas in east TX, too. hiked in one, and the "trail" I was using was a closed county road that was still paved. I found trash there dating back to the 50's or 60's or so. I understand that there were habitat conservation reasons why ppl wanted that area protected (longleaf pine savannah restoration), but I don't think "Wilderness" was a proper land designation to accomplish that goal.

And I also spent a summer in the town of Escalante, UT working for the USFS as a wildlife biologist. There's a LOT of area there that's far more wilderness than anything I've seen in the east.
 

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UZZI 275
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I hear rumblings that GAIA is close to releasing an Android Auto compatible map app. Might pay for the app once that happens.

But yes. I do like paper maps. For people who know how to use them, they show things you just won't get from any app.
There is no difference btw paper And electronic maps except auto gps positioning on the latest and compas driven guestimate positioning by person on first;


All paper map are basically electronic prior to be printed, no one draw maps manually using triangular and starts positioning


Cheers
 

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since 4/10/2009
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There is no difference btw paper And electronic maps except auto gps positioning on the latest and compas driven guestimate positioning by person on first;


All paper map are basically electronic prior to be printed, no one draw maps manually using triangular and starts positioning


Cheers
wtf? English, much?

so, how large of a screen are you carrying around with you that lets you see exactly the same things at the same scale as a foldable paper map? Where do you keep it?

Makes me wonder about the sort of background you have that qualifies you to tell me that my preferences in the uses of different map products is basically trash.

I've submitted quite a number of trails to digital mapping apps. Mostly mtbproject, but also some to trailforks. I've used survey-grade gps equipment and consumer grade gps equipment since right about the time that selective availability was turned off. I've been using digital mapping software since ArcView 3.1, and currently have my own personal ArcMap license on my home pc, which I have used to produce physical maps. These include maps for trailhead kiosks, event flyer route maps and cuesheets, and large format foldable paper trail maps. I also analyzed 30yrs of satellite imagery with yet another digital mapping program to quantify changes in land cover over that time period. I also teach map and compass skills for work.

In spite of all that, I still like paper maps that I can hold in my hand, and I still prefer to use them in certain situations. As I said before, it does not mean that I don't use map apps. They have their own (different) advantages.
 

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I don't see an advantage of a paper map. On my phone I can locate my exact locaton via GPS and I can pan and zoom around the map to see anything that I want just like a paper map. Also don't have to worry about carrying around a paper map in the pocket that eventually gets torn up, crunched up and unreadable in sections.

If a trail system is done correctly...kioks with maps at intersections etc. then you don't even need paper or phone maps.
 

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since 4/10/2009
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I don't see an advantage of a paper map.
just because you can't see one doesn't mean one doesn't exist.

the biggest advantage I see is that a physical map gives you a wider view of the area in question (all at once!) at a detail level that lets you plan. kinda important when the trail network covers a larger area and you need to make adjustments to your route plan. more important in backcountry environments than in frontcountry trail networks, true.

good trail markings do reduce the need for maps, but I can't recall the last place I've been that put maps at every intersection. does that kind of place even exist? even if there is some mythical place that puts maps on a post at every intersection, it's still a physical hard copy of the map.

on the right kind of media, a physical map can be exceptionally durable. I have paper maps that I've carried in a pack for years. I have trail maps printed on microfiber cloth, too. that's a pretty slick option if the trail network fits well on it.
 

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Rides all the bikes!
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There's wilderness literally out my back door, here in Albuquerque. If bikes were allowed in it, there'd be an endless parade of shuttles to the summit, and downhilling on popular hiking trails. Then there'd be calls for additional trails and poof...."wilderness" gone.

Consider yourself extremely lucky to have that much unmechanized country where you live.
I have a ton of trails, both legal and illegal, where you can ride for hours and hardly see anyone. Just because you CAN ride your bike out there doesn't mean everyone will. Even a popular local shuttle spot isn't that busy with bikes (paved road that parallels the trail), and it is also a popular hiking trail too. The sky hasn't fallen.

I don't see an advantage of a paper map. On my phone I can locate my exact locaton via GPS and I can pan and zoom around the map to see anything that I want just like a paper map. Also don't have to worry about carrying around a paper map in the pocket that eventually gets torn up, crunched up and unreadable in sections.

If a trail system is done correctly...kioks with maps at intersections etc. then you don't even need paper or phone maps.
That is typically something I will see on small trail systems, not something I often see in large trail networks.

good trail markings do reduce the need for maps, but I can't recall the last place I've been that put maps at every intersection. does that kind of place even exist? even if there is some mythical place that puts maps on a post at every intersection, it's still a physical hard copy of the map.
There is an area in Big Bear (southern California) that has a basic color coded map (for difficulty rating) at all intersection, for the more popular trails. Probably handy for the majority of tourists who aren't going to do more than an hour or two. But once you get past that popular area, you are on your own. And you can definitely get yourself into trouble with a wrong turn.
 

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just because you can't see one doesn't mean one doesn't exist.

the biggest advantage I see is that a physical map gives you a wider view of the area in question (all at once!) at a detail level that lets you plan. kinda important when the trail network covers a larger area and you need to make adjustments to your route plan. more important in backcountry environments than in frontcountry trail networks, true.

good trail markings do reduce the need for maps, but I can't recall the last place I've been that put maps at every intersection. does that kind of place even exist? even if there is some mythical place that puts maps on a post at every intersection, it's still a physical hard copy of the map.

on the right kind of media, a physical map can be exceptionally durable. I have paper maps that I've carried in a pack for years. I have trail maps printed on microfiber cloth, too. that's a pretty slick option if the trail network fits well on it.
I totally appreciate a good paper map.
 

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I have trail maps printed on microfiber cloth, too. that's a pretty slick option if the trail network fits well on it.
That is pretty cool. Sounds like something a local mtb group could sell or give out to members. You could use a little blue dot made of velcro, to pinpoint your location. :p
 

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That is pretty cool. Sounds like something a local mtb group could sell or give out to members. You could use a little blue dot made of velcro, to pinpoint your location. :p
the ones I have were sold by different Over The Edge shops. One in Sedona, and the other in Hurricane, UT. pretty tight weave on the fabric....I think velcro would have a hard time with it. they advertise them as being something you can clean your glasses with, or staunch bleeding. lol.
 

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Whats the best in your opinion? Curious of what I’m missing out on…
Also curious. I used MTBproject for a while and was not that impressed, particularly because the maps were woefully incomplete. I used ViewRanger for a while because the maps were better. But then Trailforks overtook it with both the completeness of the maps and the additional trail beta. I haven't seen anything out there that's better.
 

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They also work if your phone is out of batteries or is broken in a crash. Though you have to plan ahead but still.
I was once semi-relying on a phone app for navigation while riding out of state (west VA). I got so sweaty from the humidity everything was too wet and i could no longer use my touch screen phone. There were a few unknown intersections and ghost trails. Good thing for my reasonably developed mapless navigation skills.
 

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Cannondale Habit 2 Neo
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I am sure there were a lot of similar comments about MTBR when VerticalScope took over. Unfortunately, this is a trend in this industry with the independents being bought up.
 

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I hear that. 180 miles is the round trip distance from Denver to Vail. 90 mile drive, then a day of skiing, then a 90 mile return trip on snowy/icy roads is normal. So many folks make the drive that the interstate gets jammed up regularly going in and out of Vail, and Vail's parking garages overflow so much that folks have to park on the frontage road.

Its so crowded people have to park on the front range!
 

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I totally appreciate a good paper map.
Me too.

- I find it really hard for two people to look at a phone-based map at the same time on sunny days. Too much glare and too small a screen.

- I prefer a much wider field of view when I'm on longer rides with lots of intersections. Scrolling around to figure out how many turns to make in which directions is a hassle.

- My only phone is the one my job pays for so I prefer to keep it tucked away in my pack. A smallish paper map doesn't bang on my thigh when I keep it in my riding shorts.

They all have their places though.
 

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I don't see an advantage of a paper map. On my phone I can locate my exact locaton via GPS and I can pan and zoom around the map to see anything that I want just like a paper map. Also don't have to worry about carrying around a paper map in the pocket that eventually gets torn up, crunched up and unreadable in sections.

If a trail system is done correctly...kioks with maps at intersections etc. then you don't even need paper or phone maps.
somebody does not ride the backcountry.
I have a 100 mile float trip in a month. paper maps lets me see the big picture, coupled with the gps, i know where i am and what is around me.
 

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