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Beyond the stars
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I see some spots out at McDowell Mt. park and places around T100/Phoenix Mt. Preserve where I would like to see some "new" trails built. Maybe some nice dirt berms, a step up jump, a table top or two, jumping areas with drops of different sizes . . .

I know it's not permitted to just go out in the desert with a shovel and start trail building, but I also know there are a lot of "unlisted" trails (at least in the T100 area). So, what is the process to get trails built or be a part of building them myself?

I've asked about trail cleanup and all the answers I get are directed at racers that can get points for being on work crews. I'm not into trail building or cleanup for the points, more for the riding (I don't race). Anybody know who to talk with?
 

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wheeeee!!!
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Building new trails in the 100/dd area would require working with the land manager. There's already a ton of 'social' trails there, and they probably wouldn't be amenable, particularly to the sort of stunt laden stuff you're considering.

If you're looking to get involved with trail building, the Black Canyon Trail is under construcion up by new river and table mesa. I'll post here next time they do trailwork. IMBA is involved there, and apparently interested in providing some areas for technical riding. The trail is on BLM land, and it's probably easier to get stunts built out there than in a phoenix city park.

Just my 2 cents.

DJBiker said:
I see some spots out at McDowell Mt. park and places around T100/Phoenix Mt. Preserve where I would like to see some "new" trails built. Maybe some nice dirt berms, a step up jump, a table top or two, jumping areas with drops of different sizes . . .

I know it's not permitted to just go out in the desert with a shovel and start trail building, but I also know there are a lot of "unlisted" trails (at least in the T100 area). So, what is the process to get trails built or be a part of building them myself?

I've asked about trail cleanup and all the answers I get are directed at racers that can get points for being on work crews. I'm not into trail building or cleanup for the points, more for the riding (I don't race). Anybody know who to talk with?
 

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recovering roadie
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Please, please don't build dirt jumps in the mountain parks. We have enough PR issues as it is. Thanks.

DJBiker said:
I see some spots out at McDowell Mt. park and places around T100/Phoenix Mt. Preserve where I would like to see some "new" trails built. Maybe some nice dirt berms, a step up jump, a table top or two, jumping areas with drops of different sizes . . .

I know it's not permitted to just go out in the desert with a shovel and start trail building, but I also know there are a lot of "unlisted" trails (at least in the T100 area). So, what is the process to get trails built or be a part of building them myself?

I've asked about trail cleanup and all the answers I get are directed at racers that can get points for being on work crews. I'm not into trail building or cleanup for the points, more for the riding (I don't race). Anybody know who to talk with?
 

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If you're really interested in putting together a trail proposal, I recommend buying & reading IMBA's new "Trail Solutions" book. It's pretty pricey but it's really good. It has sections on how to get permission to build a trail and also techniques for actually designing and building the trail.

http://stores.yahoo.com/imba/trsobo.html

But you'll be hard-pressed to get permission to build stunts/jumps in the parks for a couple reasons. For one, most land managers want to maximize trail potential by building "multi-use" trails that hikers/bikers/equestrians can use. That way you keep the majority happy. It's difficult to convince land managers to dedicate resources to a single-use trail or area like bike stunts. Another issue is the ever-present liability. Stunts look dangerous and land-managers will be paranoid that some kid's parents will sue if little Johnny breaks his arm after casing on your step-up. If you put together a good proposal and convince the land managers to support your project, more power to you, but it won't be easy.

You might want to attend the Black Canyon trail work event on 9/25. The IMBA trail care crew will be there and they could probably answer a lot of questions you may have about how to get started on your project.

I also echo other's comments not to build trails without permission. Our access to trails is always tenuous and all it takes is a handful of vocal hikers to complain about the illegal bike trails to cause a lot of problems for cyclists.
 

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i contacted estrella mtn park via email, volunteering to build/maintain trails at estrella(that is my closest county park). they said to come into their office and fill out some forms. they do almost all their trail work during the cool season. you could do the same at McDowell.

i found the county park site by typing 'maricopa county parks' and went from there.

as for the T100 area. all the social trails are supposed to be off limits(only trails that are on the map are to be used). so far the city park folk are looking the other way when trail users use the unmarked trails. i would not want to upset that applecart. many of those unofficial trails are more fun than T100 itself.

Rita :)
 

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Beyond the stars
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Some good responses so far

Didn't I see some stuff about some 4th of July jump building in the trails in the Tuscon area? How is it that "they" can go out and build "tabletops" and stuff, and who's land are they doing it on?

Yea, I get the unfortunate reality of "multi-use" trails.

I also see stuff about the DH FR park in Oregon and places in and around the north East.

I have noticed that over the last 5+ years I have never seen any kind of trail work on T100, after a monsoon storm lots of sections get washed out, sections with loose "softball" sized rocks that for a horse would be like walking on marbles, and mt. bikers call "technical" general trail errosion, trees and shrubs that grow into the trail untill someone just snaps off the branch, or on the flip side, sections of trails at McDowell Mt. park that travel for about 1 mile in the middle of a wash with 2 foot deep sand, great for horses, not so good for human powered bikes(what's it called Sceneic View or something). And what's the deal with waterbars in the middle of a FLAT trail that doesn't have a chance of water caused errosion? Rant, rant, rant, done.

Ok, so I figure there are a fair amount of folks that would like some jumps and stuff, I'm not talking North-Shore level, more like natural jumps and rock drops, or roll-ins and stuff to play with "bigger" bikes on.

So how do we get together a "group" or "club" or whatever to work on building something like this? Maybe on the BLM land (seems like that might be a realistic thing) up by the Black Canyon Trail or whatever?

Yea, post up more info on the New River area. Also I saw some stuff about a new park in Queen Creek, anybody know what's going on with the trail network down there?

Am I all alone on this, or is there anyone else that wants to do more than just "ride the trails that we have?" If the "freeriders" in Portland can get a "park" built, why can't we?
 

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Beyond the stars
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
You know I already talked to the McDowell guys

'cause you were standing right next to me when I did it!

Crash said they already had their "trail plan" and that I would have an easier time parting the Red Sea than getting new trails built in McDowell Mt. park, but you know this because you were standing right there? It's hell getting old isn't it.
 

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No, You Didn't...

DJBiker said:
Didn't I see some stuff about some 4th of July jump building in the trails in the Tuscon area? How is it that "they" can go out and build "tabletops" and stuff, and who's land are they doing it on?

?
That was something that a group was doing in the backyard on some private property.

If you want to build jumps and tabletops in your backyard, no body is stopping you, but we don't go for that stuff on our managed public trails in Tucson any more than you do in the Valley.

John W.
 

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caninus xerophilous
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New trail on State Land in the Golder Ranch area!

Unfortunately its illegal and badly laid out by some twit from Miraval. I discovered it a week ago and in a quandry on what to do about it. Miraval is a very high end resort near WOW off of Lago Del Oro and they have a reputation for cutting illegal trails.

When I discovered it I walked it and it was obvious that it was a hiker/biker trail in its early stages of development. However it was erosion prone and the builder hacked up alot of vegitation and tried to use it to outline his trail, that and building carins every twenty feet or less. The trail is definately not based off an existing cattle/game trail.

How do I know Miraval cut it? I followed the MTB track of its builder all the way back to Miraval and the trail also fit the pattern of other illegal trails that Miraval has cut.

Any thoughts as what to would be great.

Find the dumbass trail builder and bust his knee caps with my pump? Booby trap it? Not my style. I did monkey wrench it by utiliazing the builders trail "sign" to misdirect him in a few places if he tries to rebuild it or hike it.

Let them build it? We could use more trail, eventually it may become legal.

Destroy it before it starts. I did this and am headed back today to see if the A-hole has been back out there with his nippers.

Let um build it and then I'll tweak it? Could be an excellent trail with some know how.

Complain to the authorities? I am feeling out my channels before I decide to take it to the State. Miraval seems to have some pull having previously staved off wildcat trail complaints.

Louis
 

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Check out info on Embudo Canyon

DJBiker said:
Didn't I see some stuff about some 4th of July jump building in the trails in the Tuscon area? How is it that "they" can go out and build "tabletops" and stuff, and who's land are they doing it on?

Yea, I get the unfortunate reality of "multi-use" trails.

I also see stuff about the DH FR park in Oregon and places in and around the north East.

I have noticed that over the last 5+ years I have never seen any kind of trail work on T100, after a monsoon storm lots of sections get washed out, sections with loose "softball" sized rocks that for a horse would be like walking on marbles, and mt. bikers call "technical" general trail errosion, trees and shrubs that grow into the trail untill someone just snaps off the branch, or on the flip side, sections of trails at McDowell Mt. park that travel for about 1 mile in the middle of a wash with 2 foot deep sand, great for horses, not so good for human powered bikes(what's it called Sceneic View or something). And what's the deal with waterbars in the middle of a FLAT trail that doesn't have a chance of water caused errosion? Rant, rant, rant, done.

Ok, so I figure there are a fair amount of folks that would like some jumps and stuff, I'm not talking North-Shore level, more like natural jumps and rock drops, or roll-ins and stuff to play with "bigger" bikes on.

So how do we get together a "group" or "club" or whatever to work on building something like this? Maybe on the BLM land (seems like that might be a realistic thing) up by the Black Canyon Trail or whatever?

Yea, post up more info on the New River area. Also I saw some stuff about a new park in Queen Creek, anybody know what's going on with the trail network down there?

Am I all alone on this, or is there anyone else that wants to do more than just "ride the trails that we have?" If the "freeriders" in Portland can get a "park" built, why can't we?
This summer while riding in New Mexico, my husband and I were directed to a freeride park that was built in the Embudo Canyon which lies in the foothills of the Sandia's. The park was built through a grant writen by local riders and a lbs.

The park sits on open space land that houses an extensive network of trails that are
used by hikers and mountain bikers. The facility includes a dual slalom course, a dirt
jump course and a downhill course which was all built by and maintained by over 200 hours of volunteer labor.

Since riding there, I too wonder if there are other freeriders in our area that are interested in trail/dj building on that level. It's worth checking out.

I don't know where you live, but we usually get our djing in a Papago. There is some cool
stuff built there, but it could use some care.

Hope that info helps to get things going.

Dru :)
 

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I railed it like Kong
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Since riding there, I too wonder if there are other freeriders in our area that are interested in trail/dj building on that level. It's worth checking out.

I don't know where you live, but we usually get our djing in a Papago. There is some cool
stuff built there, but it could use some care.


I would be interested in helping with a project like that at Papago. I know absolutley nothing about how to build or that stuff. But i own a shovel and am willing to sweat. Where do we go from here?
 

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wowarizona.com
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Answer to your query

DJBiker said:
Didn't I see some stuff about some 4th of July jump building in the trails in the Tuscon area? How is it that "they" can go out and build "tabletops" and stuff, and who's land are they doing it on?
Trails/berms/tabletop/jumps/rock garden built by "they" on "they's" private property.

More to go. I'm not done, yet.

I hope that explains the 'how is it' mystery. ;)
 

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SunDog said:
Let um build it and then I'll tweak it? Could be an excellent trail with some know how.
This option gets my vote. The most constructive of evils.

Now that the trail is cut, it will be used, by people and animals, and thus developed. Period! Especially if Miraval has the pull you mentioned. Dismantling this guys trail will likely engender a competetive edge and motivate him to "win" by becoming even more agressive in his efforts. Use your skills to tweak the thing, make an art piece out of it since it's already there and, again, WILL developed.

Or commit to completely erasing the thing and installing official-looking sign warning him / them away.

SunDog said:
Complain to the authorities?
God no, please! A complaint about bikers is a complaint about ALL bikers! Thant's how agencies see things! You'll be shooting yourself - and all of us - in the foot.

SunDog said:
Any thoughts as what to would be great...

Find the dumbass trail builder and bust his knee caps with my pump? Booby trap it? Not my style...

Let them build it? We could use more trail, eventually it may become legal.

Destroy it before it starts. I did this and am headed back today to see if the A-hole has been back out there with his nippers.

Let um build it and then I'll tweak it? Could be an excellent trail with some know how.

Complain to the authorities? I am feeling out my channels before I decide to take it to the State. Miraval seems to have some pull having previously staved off wildcat trail complaints.

Louis
 

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Rollin'in'Zona said:
This option gets my vote. The most constructive of evils.

Now that the trail is cut, it will be used, by people and animals, and thus developed. Period! Especially if Miraval has the pull you mentioned. Dismantling this guys trail will likely engender a competetive edge and motivate him to "win" by becoming even more agressive in his efforts. Use your skills to tweak the thing, make an art piece out of it since it's already there and, again, WILL developed.

Or commit to completely erasing the thing and installing official-looking sign warning him / them away.

God no, please! A complaint about bikers is a complaint about ALL bikers! Thant's how agencies see things! You'll be shooting yourself - and all of us - in the foot.
why can't we take a page from those guys in joliet illinois who built that crazy park that was in mtb action. only i think they built on private land instead of public. surely there must be private land in trhe valley where an owner can be persuaded to let mtb build for good reasons, like keeping kids out of trouble or something.
 

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DJBiker said:
'cause you were standing right next to me when I did it!

Crash said they already had their "trail plan" and that I would have an easier time parting the Red Sea than getting new trails built in McDowell Mt. park, but you know this because you were standing right there? It's hell getting old isn't it.
damn. yer right, you talked to Rand(nice guy). i was a bit sun baked that day, that's my story and i am sticking to it.

about being old, it is hell. now if you are insinuating my memory is getting bad, no, it has always been bad, age has nothing to do with it. ;)

Rita
 

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wowarizona.com
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Rollin'in'Zona said:
Now that the trail is cut, it will be used, by people and animals, and thus developed. Period!
Not true. Period.

Out there last night, revegitation area intact, no new signs of use. Revegitation was so complete that the former "turnoff" couldn't be found at all!!!!! (It helps to know what you are doing, how to handle desert plants, build trail, remove trail, etc.)

The attempt at a trail was on terrain that exceeded Mr. Mirival's ability.

With the recent rains, the trails are tough, again. All the sections "weenied-up" by the different "advocates and maintenance groups" have been, mostly, restored to their rocky, tough, non-forgiving natural form.

Now, if we could get the riders to stop making "alternative" lines around the hard stuff, we'd be moving forward.
 

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Beyond the stars
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Actually I talked to both of them

AZtortoise said:
damn. yer right, you talked to Rand(nice guy). i was a bit sun baked that day, that's my story and i am sticking to it.

about being old, it is hell. now if you are insinuating my memory is getting bad, no, it has always been bad, age has nothing to do with it. ;)

Rita
Rand just seemed to sugar coat his No answer better than Crash, they are both great guys, willing to help when it's possible and realistic when it's not worth the trouble.

I ain't insinuating nutting, 'cause I can't even spell insinuating. It's hell getting old for me too, I think my memory is going, among other things, but I forgot.
 

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Beyond the stars
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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Sorry C.J. IMBA doesn't seem to share your view

C.J. said:
With the recent rains, the trails are tough, again. All the sections "weenied-up" by the different "advocates and maintenance groups" have been, mostly, restored to their rocky, tough, non-forgiving natural form.

Now, if we could get the riders to stop making "alternative" lines around the hard stuff, we'd be moving forward.
This is just an example or how MOST of our existing trails are ill-built, poorly constructed, not maintained, and just generally haphazardly (is that even a word, never mind I spelled in wrong) routed.

See sample page from IMBA's trail building book
 

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In many ways, the bike parks have more in common with skate parks than they do with traditional cycling trails. If you're serious about putting together a trail proposal, you might want to get some ideas from people who have successfully implemented skate parks in AZ in addition to contacting groups who've done this in other states. I think you're underestimating the work required to get something like this approved. I'm seeing posts about picking up your shovel and getting to work but that's putting the cart way before the horse.

If you're just starting the planning process, I doubt that you'll be moving dirt for at least a year. If you really want this to happen, you need to research how to put together a good proposal to convince a private land owner or public land manager to listen to you. (Some serious schmoozing never hurts.) You should also try to line up some funding to help with the project (a bike park will require some serious dirt movers - not just a shovel & macleod). You'll need to survey the land and design the park. By this time, I'm sure you'll have generated a lot of excitement and will have plenty of volunteers for labor but that's probably the easiest task you'll have. Good luck.
 
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