Bound and sodered spokes
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Ok?
I have no idea what that's about?
Wouldn't mind knowing though...
I have no idea what that's about?
Wouldn't mind knowing though...
Too lazy to answer by myself but...
basically, it's supposed to make wheels stronger and makes the spokes to work as a tandem ("sharing" the stress when a shock is present).
Take a look at Custom Wheel Building
basically, it's supposed to make wheels stronger and makes the spokes to work as a tandem ("sharing" the stress when a shock is present).
Take a look at Custom Wheel Building
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seems it's becoming a bit of a lost art. i would like to learn how to do it.
Take a loot at FAQ - Bike Tips, near the bottom of the page. There you will find a "How to" about this subject. Just let us know how it went when you finally do it.
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I did a search (should've started with that I guess). 
There are a few good threads on tying and soldering (don't forget the "L" like I did). From what I read, it appears that quantitative strength testing disproves any real advantage.
There are a few good threads on tying and soldering (don't forget the "L" like I did). From what I read, it appears that quantitative strength testing disproves any real advantage.
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I remember something about it now, from way back. If your saying that people think theres not any real advantage, that's what I heard also, and what made me remember it.dulyebr said:I did a search (should've started with that I guess).
There are a few good threads on tying and soldering (don't forget the "L" like I did). From what I read, it appears that quantitative strength testing disproves any real advantage.
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'truing a rim
So if they are sodered how do would you true a rim that is slightly off.
Chris
So if they are sodered how do would you true a rim that is slightly off.
Chris
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46 Posts
They don't get slightly off if they are built correctly before the are soldered. Our local Titus dealer/superb wheelbuilder here in raleigh is famous for that technique. He had a set of those on a downhill bike recently that the kid wrecked and broke 4 spokes. The wheel was still true. My opinion is that it's a huge advantage if the wheel is built ie trued and tensioned correctly before doing. In the event of a likely stick through the spokes causing a broken spoke, that's when you will see the advantage. Plus they look really pimp because the wire and solder will make a solid stripe on your wheel while riding at speed.
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Jobst Brandt, the author of The Bicycle Wheel, seems to think there is no advantage. (Great book by the way!) Sheldon Brown's website references Brandt at http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/tied-soldered.html (see below.) I'm not saying anybody that believes in T&S is wrong, but if you can't believe these two guys...
Subject: Tied and Soldered Wheels
From:Jobst Brandt
Date: December 16, 1996
While writing The Bicycle Wheel, to conclusively determine what effect tying and soldering of spoke crossings in a wheel had, I asked Wheelsmith to lend me an untied pair of standard 36 spoke rear wheels, on Campagnolo low and high flange hubs. I had an inner body of a freewheel machined with flats so that a wheel could be clamped into the vise of a Bridgeport milling machine while the left end of its axle was held in the quill.
With the hub rigidly secured, with its axle vertical, dial gauges were mounted at four equally spaced locations on the machine bed to measure rim deflections as a 35lb weight was sequentially hung on the wheel at these positions. The deflections were recorded for each location and averaged for each wheel before and after tying and soldering spokes.
The wheels were also measured for torsional rigidity in the same fixture, by a wire anchored in the valve hole and wrapped around the rim so that a 35 lb force could be applied tangential to the rim. Dial gauges located at two places 90 degrees apart in the quadrant away from the applied load were used to measure relative rotation between the wheel and hub.
Upon repeating the measurements after tying and soldering the spokes, no perceptible change, other than random measurement noise of a few thousandths of an inch, was detected. The spokes were tied and soldered by Wheelsmith who did this as a regular service. The data was collected by an engineer who did not know what I expected to find. I set up the experiment and delivered the wheels.
In another thread, Jobst says this:
That tying and soldering has no effect was no idle guess. Having inspected many wheels, it had become apparent that spokes at their crossings, repeatedly make and break welds by fretting micro motions, eroding the metal so that the crossing spokes nest into each other in a practically motionless junction. This can be detected by movingspokes at their crossings after substantial use. That being the case, it was apparent that tying and soldering could not affect wheel stiffness because there is no motion to be restrained at this point.
Later, I came across an article from the days of high wheelers, that explained an important feature of Starley's invention of the cross laced wheel. The crossed spokes could be tied with twine to prevent headers (end-overs) when one of the huge spokes broke. Because all racers subsequently had tied spokes, they kept tying them even after high wheelers were replaced by today's chain driven bicycles.
Subject: Tied and Soldered Wheels
From:Jobst Brandt
Date: December 16, 1996
While writing The Bicycle Wheel, to conclusively determine what effect tying and soldering of spoke crossings in a wheel had, I asked Wheelsmith to lend me an untied pair of standard 36 spoke rear wheels, on Campagnolo low and high flange hubs. I had an inner body of a freewheel machined with flats so that a wheel could be clamped into the vise of a Bridgeport milling machine while the left end of its axle was held in the quill.
With the hub rigidly secured, with its axle vertical, dial gauges were mounted at four equally spaced locations on the machine bed to measure rim deflections as a 35lb weight was sequentially hung on the wheel at these positions. The deflections were recorded for each location and averaged for each wheel before and after tying and soldering spokes.
The wheels were also measured for torsional rigidity in the same fixture, by a wire anchored in the valve hole and wrapped around the rim so that a 35 lb force could be applied tangential to the rim. Dial gauges located at two places 90 degrees apart in the quadrant away from the applied load were used to measure relative rotation between the wheel and hub.
Upon repeating the measurements after tying and soldering the spokes, no perceptible change, other than random measurement noise of a few thousandths of an inch, was detected. The spokes were tied and soldered by Wheelsmith who did this as a regular service. The data was collected by an engineer who did not know what I expected to find. I set up the experiment and delivered the wheels.
In another thread, Jobst says this:
That tying and soldering has no effect was no idle guess. Having inspected many wheels, it had become apparent that spokes at their crossings, repeatedly make and break welds by fretting micro motions, eroding the metal so that the crossing spokes nest into each other in a practically motionless junction. This can be detected by movingspokes at their crossings after substantial use. That being the case, it was apparent that tying and soldering could not affect wheel stiffness because there is no motion to be restrained at this point.
Later, I came across an article from the days of high wheelers, that explained an important feature of Starley's invention of the cross laced wheel. The crossed spokes could be tied with twine to prevent headers (end-overs) when one of the huge spokes broke. Because all racers subsequently had tied spokes, they kept tying them even after high wheelers were replaced by today's chain driven bicycles.
Soldering/binding spokes makes the wheel a lot stiffer and less compliant. This is something of a lost art but the benefits lie mainly in the realm of road-biking, where really stiff wheels make a bit of a difference in overall speed while giving up some compliance. One of the greatest wheelbuilders still uses this technique. Most people may not have heard of him- Joe Young- Fredricksburg, TX. He is probably the one wheelbuilder with an even more enviable reputation that Dave Thomas or Gravvy. His wheels are slightly on the heavier side (if you leave it up to him) but last a lifetime.
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i was born and raised in Fredericksburg, TX....and i only heard of Joe Young 2yrs ago. a legend in my home town, living 2 miles from where i grew up, and i never knew about it. ain't that sad?
Well, he is a quiet legend
Seriously though, his resume is pretty impressive and he can build wheels that other great wheelbuilders are also impressed by. He isn't cheap though.
Dave is exellent as far as high-profile wheelbuilders go but I simply don't like the "upcharge" ($50 plus) he asks for if you ask for DT rims and his refusal to work on Mavic 819s. You building my wheels that I'm paying $700-$800 for- you build them with the rims I want; not the ones you find easy to work with- sorry but I don't want the Valiant or Mustang rims
Seriously though, his resume is pretty impressive and he can build wheels that other great wheelbuilders are also impressed by. He isn't cheap though.
Dave is exellent as far as high-profile wheelbuilders go but I simply don't like the "upcharge" ($50 plus) he asks for if you ask for DT rims and his refusal to work on Mavic 819s. You building my wheels that I'm paying $700-$800 for- you build them with the rims I want; not the ones you find easy to work with- sorry but I don't want the Valiant or Mustang rims
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No X819's? That's silly, sure it's extra work, but my customers love them, they build one ridiculously bomb solid wheel. As for tied and soldered, all the stated reasons have been said, but there's one more possibility out there, for those that like something a bit different. Twist lacing. Instead of tie and solder, you do a full rotation of twist at the cross point. According to it's supporters, it adds lateral rigidity, at worst it looks cool. My son has a set that I built for him several years ago, he beats them, they're still nice tight and true. I've done a few over the years, no issues yet, hey, be the first on your block= Rock on.
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