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Discussion Starter · #41 ·
So if your spending $4k+ on a bike I would think that you would compare every detail that went into that bike.
OK. Comparing the YT to the Ibis in my original post...What detail would set the Ibis apart making it worth $2300 more?

  1. Both are full carbon suspension frames but just different linkage designs.
  2. Both have the same drive train offering.
  3. Both have the same suspension offering.
  4. The YT has a carbon wheelset. The Ibis has an aluminum wheelset.
  5. YT is 5 year warranty. Ibis is 7 year warranty.
I really don't see anything in the list that jumps out and would want to make me pay $2300 more for a comparable bike.
 

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OK. Comparing the YT to the Ibis in my original post...What detail would set the Ibis apart making it worth $2300 more?

  1. Both are full carbon suspension frames but just different linkage designs.
  2. Both have the same drive train offering.
  3. Both have the same suspension offering.
  4. The YT has a carbon wheelset. The Ibis has an aluminum wheelset.
  5. YT is 5 year warranty. Ibis is 7 year warranty.
I really don't see anything in the list that jumps out and would want to make me pay $2300 more for a comparable bike.
Then don't. Thats the beautiful thing about capitalism that everyone seems to forget, choices. Ibis sells a lot of bikes. They feel their product is worth more, if you don't cool. That being said, how the frame is constructed could be the $2300 difference alone. YT doesn't make a bad product, but just as a guy who likes bikes, I'm going to say Ibis has a rep for higher quality than YT.

Look I sell on quality over price everyday for my profession. Guys tell me well I can get this paint cheaper than yours, and its just a can of paint like yours. But when they have problems and the other company can't be reached, I start looking like the better buy all the time.
 

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Then don't. Thats the beautiful thing about capitalism that everyone seems to forget, choices. Ibis sells a lot of bikes. They feel their product is worth more, if you don't cool. That being said, how the frame is constructed could be the $2300 difference alone. YT doesn't make a bad product, but just as a guy who likes bikes, I'm going to say Ibis has a rep for higher quality than YT.

Look I sell on quality over price everyday for my profession. Guys tell me well I can get this paint cheaper than yours, and its just a can of paint like yours. But when they have problems and the other company can't be reached, I start looking like the better buy all the time.
100%

Same thing with my profession.

Ibis has very high quality carbon production, let alone the new Exie, made in the USA stuff out now. They pay to license the DW Link, they also use a far more expensive dropper (Bike Yoke Revive), I9 stem, better headset...

Let alone the simple fact that Ibis IS NOT DIRECT TO CONSUMER. A decent chunk of the extra cost is helping to provide jobs at all the dealers they sell through and provide support to the entire MTB community.
 

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Discussion Starter · #44 ·
Then don't. Thats the beautiful thing about capitalism that everyone seems to forget, choices. Ibis sells a lot of bikes. They feel their product is worth more, if you don't cool. That being said, how the frame is constructed could be the $2300 difference alone. YT doesn't make a bad product, but just as a guy who likes bikes, I'm going to say Ibis has a rep for higher quality than YT.

Look I sell on quality over price everyday for my profession. Guys tell me well I can get this paint cheaper than yours, and its just a can of paint like yours. But when they have problems and the other company can't be reached, I start looking like the better buy all the time.
I get capitalism. But I'd rather keep more money in my pocket. And no way that frame is worth $2300 more. LOL.
 

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Well, it's kind of humorous watching the realization of how market forces work. Other than that, really.. I'm generally paying for service.
 

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OK. Comparing the YT to the Ibis in my original post...What detail would set the Ibis apart making it worth $2300 more?

  1. Both are full carbon suspension frames but just different linkage designs.
  2. Both have the same drive train offering.
  3. Both have the same suspension offering.
  4. The YT has a carbon wheelset. The Ibis has an aluminum wheelset.
  5. YT is 5 year warranty. Ibis is 7 year warranty.
I really don't see anything in the list that jumps out and would want to make me pay $2300 more for a comparable bike.
There really isn't. Its possible that Ibis is using a different layup or grade of carbon like how Santa Cruz has two different versions of their carbon frames...but I don't think its a 2300 difference. The component kits I'm pretty sure are similarly priced to the different bike companies. OEM pricing for a mid level shock is around $40-50 and forks are ~$200. I used to work for a small road bike company I saw the OEM pricing that bike manufacturers get. For example a well know stem that retails for $60...is $10 before it leaves the port at Taiwan. Friend of mine worked one of the suspension manufacturers in Taichung Taiwan and he told me how much some of the bike frames cost when it leaves the factory. The markups is pretty darn high. Marketing and paying all those pro riders can get quite expensive. It all gets tacked onto the price of the bike.

Each time the bike changes hands...the price goes up. YT bypassed the middleman so they can offer better prices.

In the end...people are willing to pay more for an Ibis than a YT. Same goes for Pivot and Yeti.

I wonder how bike companies set their MSRPs. I also worked for a company that made aftermarket suspension parts for VWs and Audis. They set their MSRP at 5x the actual cost of the part. I wonder how bike companies do it.
 

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Funny how commonly we blame marketing and sponsorship, when it’s much more likely- expense of leases or land, buildings, equipment, and all those engineers and designers + other employees and the health insurance, payroll taxes, benefits and all the other ways employees in US are very expensive.
 

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Keep things simple
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As long as sellers get a higher price, they will. Then other sellers in the same market will copycat.
 

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I get capitalism. But I'd rather keep more money in my pocket. And no way that frame is worth $2300 more. LOL.
High-end premium stuff is absolutely never worth the extra price.

For thousands less than the YT I can get an Aluminum bike from many manufactures that is just as quick, just as fun, and might even be more durable.

The reality is a lot of mountain bikes are luxury items. Pricing on luxury items never makes sense.
 
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Dream it, Do it.
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Another perspective on this is that bikes priced over $1,000 or so are luxury items. Demand for some luxury products actually increases when they are priced higher. My point is that some people are less price-sensitive than would seem to be "logical". Some of the intangible benefits such as subjective performance of a bike and supporting a local bike shop also become more important especially as people start having more money, but less time.


Some other thoughts as to why not every Ibis owner would necessarily switch to buying a YT just because it is $2.5k less in price.

1. Don't discount how a bike actually rides. Having a carbon fiber frame and wheels is just one factor in how a bike rides. I'm currently at an age at which I have less time to ride and more income. I'd rather spend $1000-2000 more on a bike if that bike will make every ride feel better. I only get a new bike (meaning that both frame and parts are both pretty new at the same time) about every 5 years. That means that a $3,000 price delta is only a difference of $600 per year of riding.

2. There are ways to reduce the one-time cost of a bike and still ride a bike from a boutique bike brand. I tend to upgrade parts on a bike and move those parts from one frame to another. I might get a new frame one year & upgrade/replace parts the next year. Though it looks like I'm riding a $6,000-7,000 bike. I'm never spending that much at one time. A big advantage to buying a direct-to-consumer bike is the lower cost when buying complete bikes, but that's not what I have typically done. I think a big part of the cost advantage of the direct-to-consumer brands is lower cost labor from Asian countries to build bikes. Selling frames instead of complete bikes cuts out a lot of that difference in lower labor costs.

3. Being able to do demo rides: I'd be open to getting a YT or Canyon bike, but I've never ridden one. Their demo tours would be a key factor in my deciding to buy one or not.

4. How a product fits with what I want to do is an important consideration. I did just get my son a Commencal hardtail frame because it checked all of the boxes for a custom build that I wanted to do. Stock bikes from Specialized or Trek would require the extra work of switching out some parts to do a SRAM GX build. In this case, it was be both less effort and less money to buy the direct-to-consumer frame from Commencal.

5. Supporting local bike shops: Part of the cost of the Ibis goes to pay local bike shops for their wrenching expertise & increasingly, having bikes available for demo. A great shop close to me always has their entire fleet of Yeti demo bikes being ridden every day. For busy working people short on time, the ability to ride a bike and then chat with a shop right away to buy that bike is worth a lot.

My main bike right now is an Ibis. I got a good deal on a lightly used bike and it's now spec'ed the way I want it. Would I buy another Ibis frame or bike? 100%. It's been a great bike for me. Perhaps the best riding bike I've ever had. Would a I buy a YT or Canyon? Maybe, if I were able to ride one and it rode just as well.
 

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Dream it, Do it.
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High-end premium stuff is absolutely never worth the extra price.

For thousands less than the YT I can get an Aluminum bike from many manufactures that is just as quick, just as fun, and might even be more durable.

The reality is a lot of mountain bikes are luxury items. Pricing on luxury items never makes sense.
I think that a big part of the pricing on luxury items is the perceived experience that someone is getting from buying that luxury product. I agree that doesn't completely make sense from a logical perspective.

Remember how GM used to compare their cars to luxury brand cars with a checklist:

Automatic transmission: Check
Leather seats: Check
Moonroof: Check
Wire-look wheels: Check

Obviously that comparison worked for some people. I couldn't find an example of the ads I remember from the 80's, but this ad from the 70's conveys the same idea of the same features for less money.

Automotive parking light Car Tire Vehicle Land vehicle
 

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I wonder how bike companies set their MSRPs. I also worked for a company that made aftermarket suspension parts for VWs and Audis. They set their MSRP at 5x the actual cost of the part. I wonder how bike companies do it.
Probably by figuring out what price allows them to sell the quantity they want to produce. I used to work for a car manufacturer and would conduct quantitative market research studies to determine how demand there would be for a car model at different price points relative to competitive products.
 

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I think that a big part of the pricing on luxury items is the perceived experience that someone is getting from buying that luxury product. I agree that doesn't completely make sense from a logical perspective.

Remember how GM used to compare their cars to luxury brand car with a checklist:

Automatic transmission: Check
Leather seats: Check
Moonroof: Check
Wire-look wheels: Check

Obviously that comparison worked for some people. I couldn't find an example of the ads I remember from the 80's, but this ad from the 70's conveys the same idea of the same features for less money.

View attachment 1947913
Have to love it, 3 speed on the floor still in 1976 coupled with a cam in block 115hp I6 that was designed in the late 1950s, not to mention that horrible whorehouse interior. Despite the fact that GM was the largest manufacture in the world in the 1970s, they ignored the dire warnings by people like John Delorean that their products were crap, behind, and getting worse. Meanwhile, while GM was building this garbage, companies like Honda and Toyota were offering far superior, modern compact cars for the same price that got twice the mileage, handled far better, and lasted more than 80,000 miles.

 

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...

5. Supporting local bike shops: Part of the cost of the Ibis goes to pay local bike shops for their wrenching expertise & increasingly, having bikes available for demo. A great shop close to me always has their entire fleet of Yeti demo bikes being ridden every day. For busy working people short on time, the ability to ride a bike and then chat with a shop right away to buy that bike is worth a lot.

My main bike right now is an Ibis. I got a good deal on a lightly used bike and it's now spec'ed the way I want it. Would I buy another Ibis frame or bike? 100%. It's been a great bike for me. Perhaps the best riding bike I've ever had. Would a I buy a YT or Canyon? Maybe, if I were able to ride one and it rode just as well.
I think you are missing customer support or folding it in with local bike shop support.

I researched buying a Canyon road bike and fat bike. What put me off is the company seems to still operate like a garage operation run on a shoe string. It apparently buys a batch of frames, being careful to order below expected demand so it is not left with excess inventory. This is effectively the same as a couple of chancers scrounging some money together, ordering a small batch of frames from China with their newly made-up brand name on them, selling them until they are gone, and then if they made a profit ordering a new batch. It is a terrible customer support experience. With Canyon you can wait months for new stock. If something goes wrong, like you need replacement of a frame or proprietary stem or whatever, you may be truly screwed because Canyon may not have any replacements until the next batch is ordered. They are not just cutting out the middle man. They are skimping on other factors necessary for proper customer support.
 

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If you look at actual bikes 1:1 the only difference between bike brands is the frame, sometimes the wheels. The small stuff like stems is a tiny factor. I ride an Ibis and tested a YT Capra and Jefsey. There is nothing in the Ibis frame that I see that should make it more expensive. The reasons Ibis is more expensive is how the company operates and branding, not the bike itself. If they use different carbon, it accounts to a small part of the frame cost. The only exception is GG that is using a different process than the rest of the industry.

Many of the claims about the direct to consumer brands here are ridiculous. R&D? Quality of frames? Sponsoring athletes? All not true. YT sponsored the best DH rider in the world and won many world cup DH races. Canyon bikes are regulars on road racing and XC podiums. The bikes are cheaper because of the business model and the brand image.
 

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I think that a big part of the pricing on luxury items is the perceived experience that someone is getting from buying that luxury product. I agree that doesn't completely make sense from a logical perspective.

Remember how GM used to compare their cars to luxury brand cars with a checklist:

Automatic transmission: Check
Leather seats: Check
Moonroof: Check
Wire-look wheels: Check

Obviously that comparison worked for some people. I couldn't find an example of the ads I remember from the 80's, but this ad from the 70's conveys the same idea of the same features for less money.

View attachment 1947913
I'll take the Audi 100.😁

Wheel Tire Car Vehicle Vehicle registration plate
 

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@CrozCountry and @Spectre make some great points posted above.
The chord he strikes with me is-change. I feel many are entrenched in “the way that has always been” mentality that sellers are using to slowly but surely make us pay more.

I understand there will be so many “ruffled feathers” and “let me explain to you” type justifications of my statement. LBSs (who I think are quite necessary) need to adapt as well.

I endear bicycling and want everyone to as well-by being able to afford it as a start. I am a lifetime aviator and have seen what pricing people out/overregulation of the hobby has done in that arena.
Hope bikes don’t go that way. That’s the way it’s always been….
 

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Wanna ride bikes?
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This old thread? :rolleyes:
 
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Discussion Starter · #60 · (Edited)
This old thread? :rolleyes:
I'm sure I'm not the first to post on bike prices. While there always has been a fine line on whether or not a bike was priced fairly, right now it's a different story. We are being raked over the coals and they are using covid as an excuse. I still say it's BS.

Next mountain bike I buy will be used. I'll let someone else take the hit on the overpriced bike.
 
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