[Reset]

Hi
RS have some pretty good deal I think for the Azure. There has been some great comments on that bike by a lot of people which might bring me to buy it online.
I'm on a budget and I am hesitant between 2 options : Comp 06 1099$ or expert 05 1399$

http://www.rscycle.com/s.nl/it.A/id.8093/.f?sc=13&category=-113#
http://www.rscycle.com/s.nl/it.A/id.7604/.f?sc=7&category=55

To spend the 300$ more, there has to be some good upgrades. What I like about the expert 05 is the 3.5 " of travel compared to the 3" in 2006.
I heard of warranty problems with the 5th element on the expert though.
Also, how big of a deal it is...I mean, should I hurry or there is deal like that pretty often?

Any thoughts?

Thank you

 

[corleone]

I have the 05 expert and my wife has the 06 comp. Get the expert, it is a good deal lighter.

 

[soccerjett]

Alright Corleone, I think you almost have me talked into it. Or I've almost talked myself into it. Something like that. Either way we're all blaming you if we don't like it.....(kidding)

I'm leaning towards the 05 Expert as well. Do you guys think the sale will really end on Jan 31st?

 

[Reset]

Alright Corleone, I think you almost have me talked into it. Or I've almost talked myself into it. Something like that. Either way we're all blaming you if we don't like it.....(kidding)

I'm leaning towards the 05 Expert as well. Do you guys think the sale will really end on Jan 31st?

May I ask why...you're leaning that way?

 

[ska todd]

FYI is that the 05 vs 06 vs 07 frames are all virtually identical. They all have 90mm travel.

-ska todd

 

[Reset]

Good to know...
thanks...

 

[clark]

I have and like the comp.

The choice was not at all difficult for me.

I impulse load the front fork in tight single track so needed 32mm stantions - Reba

I run getto tubeless and impulse load the front fork - pythons, as loved and sucessful as they are, are not for me.

I like cup and cone Cane Creek or XT(R) hubs.

I like 23mm rims (17 inside to inside is too narrow)

I do not like dual control.

I do like FR-5 levers.

I already have a post and seat (and wheels/tires) for race use. The ones on the comp are great for training.

The only place I am tripping a bit is how to get to thumb thumb or twisters...

With twisters the stiff upper pully (that below X.0 is only a bushing and sometimes rusts up) is kind of needed. 2007 lx and higher has thumb thumb... I just bought some attacks. The bike is finished!

Anyway the comp was an obvious choice for me.

 

[soccerjett]

May I ask why...you're leaning that way?

Since the frames are basically the same, it all comes down to components. From what I've seen on here the 05 Expert is lighter; coming from a HT and doing a little sport racing this is somewhat important to me. I don't want to upgrade anything for a while, and I'd like a halfway decent and light wheelset. The 2006 Expert spec is really nice, but that's another $300, and I'm trying to stay under $1500.

Here's the breakdown of 05 Expert vs. 06 Comp on RScycle, keep in mind I don't have personal experience with most of these components; I'm basing my opinions on reviews and friends comments.

Fork: Manitou Skareb SPV vs. RS Reba SL
Rear shock: 5th Element vs. Fox Float R
Drivetrain: Full XT ( minus Front DR) vs. XT Rear + Deore everything else
Disc Brakes: XT hydraulic vs. Avid BB5 mechanical
Wheelset: WTB Lazerdisc Lite Hubs W/ Mavic XC 317 Rims vs. WTB Speeddisc rims W/ ?? hubs

For me, the $300 is worth it because:
The fork is basically a tie on weight and reviews, about the same price new.
Comp wins with the Fox rear shock (maybe?).
Expert wins with full XT over Deore for sure. If it were XT/LX, it would be much closer. I'm a little scared of the XT Dual Control "flippy" shifters though.
Expert wins with hydro brakes although Avid's are pretty nice.
Expert wheelset is quite a bit nicer I think

The weight, drivetrain, and wheelset are the biggest wins for me. Even if I wanted to upgrade wheelset from the Comp later, it would cost more than $300.

Ska Todd, maybe you can't say anything, but do you have a strong opinion one way or the other on these 2?

 

[soccerjett]

I have and like the comp.

The choice was not at all difficult for me.

I impulse load the front fork in tight single track so needed 32mm stantions - Reba

I run getto tubeless and impulse load the front fork - pythons, as loved and sucessful as they are, are not for me.

I like cup and cone Cane Creek or XT(R) hubs.

I like 23mm rims (17 inside to inside is too narrow)

I do not like dual control.

I do like FR-5 levers.

I already have a post and seat (and wheels/tires) for race use. The ones on the comp are great for training.

The only place I am tripping a bit is how to get to thumb thumb or twisters...

With twisters the stiff upper pully (that below X.0 is only a bushing and sometimes rusts up) is kind of needed. 2007 lx and higher has thumb thumb... I just bought some attacks. The bike is finished!

Anyway the comp was an obvious choice for me.

Makes sense to me with your description, especially if you have an opinion about the Reba and dual control. I don't really have an opinion there myself.

The unknown hubs are Cane Creek or XT(R) ?? I couldn't find that anywhere. The wheelset difference is one of the big reasons I liked the 05 Expert, I'd like the racier wheels of the two. I've got Sun RhynoLites w/ XT hubs if I need to use some stronger rims.

 

[Reset]

Thanks soccerjet and clark...
I've got a nice set of Crossmax XT that I might sell or might not if I get a good deal on a bike with cheap wheels...
I'll continue my researchs since I'm not familiar with the dual control and the Avid breaks...

Thanks again, much appreciated

 

[Jan R]

Comp, the reba and the fox would do it for me and like you not a big dual control fan and can get you a set of xt rapidfire shifters on the cheap and a nice set of crossrides for under 200 and have a smoking nice ride go with the comp Reba is a better fork and not a manitou fan (have seen to many Issues with them) and the fox rear shox absolutly the way to go and wont have any issues and really easy to service when needed.
Comp,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Jan R

 

[Jan R]

Comp, the reba and the fox would do it for me
sorry double post
Jan R

 

[clark]

Makes sense to me with your description, especially if you have an opinion about the Reba and dual control. I don't really have an opinion there myself.

The unknown hubs are Cane Creek or XT(R) ?? I couldn't find that anywhere. The wheelset difference is one of the big reasons I liked the 05 Expert, I'd like the racier wheels of the two. I've got Sun RhynoLites w/ XT hubs if I need to use some stronger rims.

People finish way better than I do using dual control and 17mm Mavic rims - especially if you consider that most races are simple endurance events...

So the expert is a good pick for lots of people.

17 mm is too narrow for me in that tubeless conversions are $8 a wheel if the rim is a bit wider,(at 17mm things get really tight at the valve stem ) and sidewall stability is better a bit wider. Pythons won't go Ghetto tubeless.

So if you want to run those wheels tubeless you will need:
new tires ~ $40-100
Stans kit ~ $70

For me those wheels feel like middle ground. Stan's olympic rims at $75 and 28 hole 2006 XTR rear hub from Jensen at $65 and a sram 980 cassette at $50... plus shipping.

I guess a custom wheelset is not inexpensive, but you have more money left to do it with the comp.

 

[soccerjett]

Wow, thanks for all the responses again, considering what time I posted this last night!

Although I'm really not a fan of stepping down to Deore, you're right I could pick up some XT rapidfires, and front DR doesn't matter.

So if you just compare the wheelset differences, what do you think? Do you guys think $200 Crossrides are better than the Expert spec wheelset (WTB Lazerdisc Lite Hubs W/ Mavic XC 317 Rims) ? I don't care about tubeless.

Also, Avid Mechanical BB5 vs. XT hydraulic? I've only had v-brakes before.

If I get the Comp and upgrade wheels $200+$60(maybe) for XT rapidfires, I'm basically at the same price. But with Reba, Fox Float, and spare wheelset.........

The Thomson post and Easton stuff on the Expert is nice too, but Ritchey's not bad. Now I'm back to undecided!

 

[corleone]

Wow, thanks for all the responses again, considering what time I posted this last night!

Although I'm really not a fan of stepping down to Deore, you're right I could pick up some XT rapidfires, and front DR doesn't matter.

So if you just compare the wheelset differences, what do you think? Do you guys think $200 Crossrides are better than the Expert spec wheelset (WTB Lazerdisc Lite Hubs W/ Mavic XC 317 Rims) ? I don't care about tubeless.

Also, Avid Mechanical BB5 vs. XT hydraulic? I've only had v-brakes before.

If I get the Comp and upgrade wheels $200+$60(maybe) for XT rapidfires, I'm basically at the same price. But with Reba, Fox Float, and spare wheelset.........

The Thomson post and Easton stuff on the Expert is nice too, but Ritchey's not bad. Now I'm back to undecided!

The Xt hydros are great so much better than either v-brakes or mechs. I am going to be putting on a set for my wife next month. I was sketchy about the dual controls but after riding them I love em. What I have weighed of the ritchey stuff, it is a good bit heavier than the Easton/Thompson... At the end of the day I am basically just upgrading the comp to the expert in the coming month or so lol.

 

[clark]

The Expert is a good parts spec. If you do not already have light stuff to stick on the comp, you will have trouble beating that spec. It is light, has good hydraulic brakes and is a bike you can win on. Weight matters. People win on SIDs... because weight (and adjustability) matters a lot.

The way IH has split up the different models is better than most other companies. It is like they are using customer profiles to spec their bikes.

 

[ska todd]

The way IH has split up the different models is better than most other companies. It is like they are using customer profiles to spec their bikes.

A lot of the research we do is right here on mtbr, over on ridemonkey, pinkbike, farkin, nsmb, etc...keeping our ears to the ground at ALL times. We are very critical of ourselves internally and are not afraid to tell each other our opinions on stuff that matters.

A lot also comes from being involved closely with riders and racers. From Sam Hill to asking a newb at Diablo; what they like or don't like and how to fix it. The Sunday is what it is from talking to Sam Hill. A lot of the Azure feedback came from Salem Mazzawy. Yakuza input came from lots of groms. Etc, etc.

The final part is from working closely with parts vendors and sharing feedback from customers and riders with them.

So, as always keep the feedback coming. While we can't always respond to it, I assure you it is all read by myself, dw, or dante and often discussed and agonized over.

-ska todd

 

[clark]

A lot of the research we do is right here on mtbr, .. often discussed and agonized over.

-ska todd

Whatever you are doing seems to be working. My brother in Maine bought an Azure Comp as well. He argues with me when I say it is a good bike. He says it is a great bike!

Everything works and works well.

Other thoughts: Wanted to ditch the triple (coming from a hard tail). Discovered the chain angle to the front rings matters a lot, so the front gears stay...

Any chance of getting an XC weight fork with 20mm Drop Outs aka Marzocchi 4X World Cup.

If you look carefully at a Chris King Classic front hub you get great stiffness and light weight using a large diameter thin walled tube. If you extend the tube and give it a little compression stiffness... you ought to be able to get stiffer and lighter front ends for everyone - not just the downhill folks.

The bit about the OEM Minute with stiff axle attachment was great to see. If you core out the dropouts to get downhill stiffness at XC weights. Maybe Dave will run some FEA to see what those dropouts would do to a SID stiffness wise... then stick them on a light 32mm fork.

Anyway it is good to see folks thinking and then trying stuff. Thanks.

 

[ska todd]

Any chance of getting an XC weight fork with 20mm Drop Outs aka Marzocchi 4X World Cup.

Oh this is a discussion I've had countless times over the past couple years w/ fork makers, hub manufacturers, & XC guys! Hub makers are there...look at the DT/Swiss 240 thru axle for example; 170g thru axle...I'd say most fork makers are into the concept, it's just trying to sell it to the riding public (especially XC race guys) that wads everything up.

So many riders are concerned about running their existing wheels, using their fork mount car rack, etc that the concept makes dealers, and therefore fork makers, nervous. However, I think it's only a matter of time until it becomes a reality. A Maxle type system is really quick to remove a wheel and anyone who has ridden a 20mm version of a fork vs a QR version of the same fork will always glow with enthusiasm about how much better the fork tracks and the better feel of the suspension.

-ska todd

 

[clark]

...

So many riders are concerned about running their existing wheels, using their fork mount car rack, etc that the concept makes dealers, and therefore fork makers, nervous. However, I think it's only a matter of ...

... glow with enthusiasm about how much better the fork tracks and the better feel of the suspension.

-ska todd

It might just be a matter of:

1) making an transporter adapter kit availible consisting of two shouldered axle segments to fit in the 20mm dropouts and providing perhaps a longer skewer, and

2) getting the folks who worship light weight, because it correlates with results, by starting with SID WC lowers and clamping to machined up extended King axle...

https://www.coloradocyclist.com/images/products/full/kindfca02.jpg

The front hub weighs 166g. If you change the shape of the ends of the axle so that you don't have to pay the weight penalty of a separate through axle (if you are running XC with sealant the 20mm ends can thread on where the existing caps go, the front wheel will come off easily enough) the whole thing can weigh less than a skewer setup.

i.e 20mm screw on end weight = skewer weight + normal screw on end cap weight.

https://canecreek.com/fileadmin/canecreek/products/wheels/man_wheels/06_aros_volos_zonos_050206.pdf

A separate thru axle adds weight that is not needed considering the reliability of sealant run XC tires. Threaded 20mm ends perhaps double or triple threaded (like on a toothpaste cap) can get you enough engaged length with 2 turns of an allen wrench. The fork clamp bolts:

https://marzocchi.com/Template/detailSPAForksMTB.asp?IDFolder=208&IDOggetto=30978&LN=UK&Sito=usa-mtb

keep the double/triple threaded ends from backing off.

That should be really stiff and as light as any XC setup. 175g for everything.

Do you know how much those lowers weigh - they could stand a hole in the axle clamp strap?

... XC is all about weight. What happens when you do this to a SID?

Anyway, thanks for knowing the right direction and taking steps to get there.