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Avy Hybrid vs just damper

9252 Views 101 Replies 23 Participants Last post by Kaparzo, May 16, 2022

Danzzz88

Discussion Starter · Jan 4, 2022

So I've pretty much decided I will opt for an Avy damper over other options..however I'm in a dilemma about hybrid or just damper and Smashpot.

I already have the Smashpot installed and I don't know if it could have scratched the internals and prevent going back to air. I get pretty much zero stiction with the Smashpot though I have seen some reports on Pinkbike of slight stiction when the bike has been sitting with the Avy hybrid.

Now to me coil is always going to offer less stiction than air just pushing down o the bars...but in practice when riding will the hybrid actually have less stiction due to more equalised spring force on both sides?

Now one thing I haven't seen before is Craig is telling me that if I just stay coil I have to run a 30% firmer setup than I would with his hybrid setup which he says will make the hybrid much plusher due to coils needing to be firmer because they have no ramp up. However my Smashpot certainly does ramp up quite a lot towards the end of travel and is fairly smooth off the top so how true is it what he is saying? Because in theory wouldn't that mean air forks although they might have less small bump compliance are generally much better on square edge hits? But I thought that was just a compromise from having less midstroke support? In general I prefer coil compared to air so I really need to be convinced the hybrid will be better for me especially at 700 dollars all in before import duties and tax.

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johnsogr

· #2 · Jan 4, 2022

Glad you decided to go w/ Avy. As Craig noted, he’s not a fan of solo coil setups and believes his hybrid is best. I have the hybrid setup (w/ burnished bushings) and notice almost no stiction as my air side is only 35 PSI. Given that you seem to like your current spring, and there’s a chance that your stanchion is scored internally, you should probably stick w/ the coil you have. There will be progression from the hydraulic bottom on out on the smashpot, and from the damper side (it’s filled w/ oil so air compresses above it creating an additional spring). Hope that helps!

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Bicycle Rider

· #3 · Jan 4, 2022

No experience with the hybrid setup, but I run a Lyrik coil with Avalanche cartridge damper, and it’s 100% awesome.

Getting spring rate right is clearly important with coil, but if you’re happy now I bet you’re all set. I have about 5mm worth of preload spacers to fine tune my initial sag/stroke, and the rest feels perfect. There’s definitely a nice subtle ramp effect from the trapped air - to me far better than the steep curve you generally see with air. That has me running less sag than air, but I reach 90% travel much more readily, all while feeling more support (vs mushy wallow) throughout the stroke.

half_man_half_scab

· #4 · Jan 4, 2022

Aren’t the top cap threads the same on either side of the Zeb? If the Avy hybrid doesn’t make use of the equalization port, maybe put the air-hybrid on the right?

johnsogr

· #5 · Jan 4, 2022

It does because it still has the native air spring on the left.

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mike156

· #6 · Jan 4, 2022

The hybrid has nothing to do with the air side. It's just a spring on top of the damper. For the hybrid to work, the stock air spring has to work as intended still.

With the smashpot having a shimed hydraulic bottom out setup, I wouldn't worry at all about the hybrid.

No surprise you got the upsale pitch though. Craig likely isn't wrong on what he's saying, I would bet the hybrid does work better. But you are almost certainly so far into the land of diminishing returns that I doubt it matters. I'm perfectly content on the air setup with his damper... Maybe riding a coil would make me rethink that, but I'm not currently missing it. Ignorance can be bliss.

Reactions: 3

jncarpenter

· #7 · Jan 5, 2022

I initially rode the Yari with just the Avy damper for nearly a year, as I was over the weight limit of his hybrid spring. When I saw that he had developed a coil sufficient for my weight, I decided to opt in. After several more months, I received the hybrid spring. I installed the spring & setup the air side per Avy's recommendations. I was pretty blown away by the difference in added traction, small bump compliance & mid stroke support. It was pretty eye opening honestly, as I have been riding Craig's products for almost 20 years (DHS, Chubie & several fork carts). I expected the cart to make more of a difference with the Yari, but it wasn't until I added the hybrid spring that the old familiar Avalanche suspension feel returned. Best suspension upgrade I have made in a long time & finally matched the feel of the Avy Bomber CR on the rear of my Banshee.

Danzzz88

Discussion Starter · #8 · Jan 5, 2022

So apparently Craig is quite ill with Covid atm and they don't know when he will be back...heres hoping he makes a good recovery.

However when I messaged him previously in the past here is what he had to say about the hybrid.

"
Our hybrid coil/air cartridge system is the best option you need to consider. The dual coil system is generally for larger riders where one spring cannot support your weight.

The key point you need to understand is that a combination of coil and air is the best solution. A coil only system requires a 30% firmer spring due to the empty coil leg does not create any progression or ramp up, such as the Smashpot system.

Yes our cartridge will work with the smashpot but it will not feel as plush and supportive as our hybrid system in the Zeb.

Hybrid coil/air cartridge damper system
Did you get a chance to read why a Hybrid Coil Cartridge System as compared to a coil only replacement system? This is the key to a plusher more coil like feel because
the spring rate is not over sized and no full stroke ramp up exists with
current MTB coil forks."

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half_man_half_scab

· #9 · Jan 5, 2022

A key selling point for me on the Smashpot and coil systems generally was the consistent performance across temperature gradients. I live in a cool desert where you might start out in sub-freezing temps, and then end up in t-shirt weather by the end of a ride. This would wreak havoc on the native Zeb air spring where 1 psi can make a difference in spring rate. Thus, I find hybrid systems a turnoff.

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Danzzz88

Discussion Starter · #10 · Jan 5, 2022

Not only that but with the hybrid you would be running pressures roughly half so 1 or 2psi out of 30ps would be quite noticeable. The bit I want to know how true it is though is him saying you need to run a 30% firmer coil than equivalent air. I'm guessing he is just calculated that from bottom out resistance. But then surely you would have no mid stroke support from the air spring which coils are known for. I don't believe you get midstroke support from a damper...midstroke to me is having the support in super lower speed compressions and body movements, how is a damper going to affect that at all unless it is severely overdamped? Maybe it will hav3 more midstroke damping on square edge hits but that is something that coil feels worse...the firmer midstroke trades off for a bit of square edge suppleness.

Preston67

· #11 · Jan 5, 2022

Just another voice chiming in - I have push coil and Avy damper in a 36, and its fantastic, I have no desire to pursue anything more. I do have the hydraulic anti-bottom upgrade in the damper which may help with progression and bottom out - I don't put air in the Push "bottom out" chamber as I could never really tell a difference and its such a tiny volume that I had to re-check it every ride (as it would leak down) so I just quit monkeying with it.

Best wishes for Craig's recovery, as I've been a happy Avy customer for decades as well - don't know what I'd do if I needed something !

Fair warning I ordered a Bomber CR upgrade last April and they didn't have me send in my shock for work until August !!! So if you're planning on something I'd move sooner rather than later.
(also, this bomber is the bomb, another masterpiece from Craig).

Danzzz88

Discussion Starter · #12 · Jan 5, 2022

That's one of my bigger concerns.. I heard it can take a few months as is...and I believe he is quite ill atm so it could be a long time before I could get it. I just wish there was more reviews or opinions on the FAST damper so I can make a firm decision because at this rate I might be waiting ages for an AVY. I mean I don't know how old he is but he has being doing this a while, who knows for how much longer and if there will still be product support and part for a long time to come...

johnsogr

· #13 · Jan 5, 2022

I literally just got another damper and shock from him and the damper was finished way ahead of the shock.

Also, the Push and Avy damper is close to the hybrid coil given it has the air progression at the end.

Just go for it and get the Hybrid, YOLO!!!

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Dougal

· #14 · Jan 6, 2022

The +30% is because Craig will have his own internal design rules dictating spring force at bottom-out be a multiple of sprung weight etc. Doesn't mean you have to adhere to those if your riding is different.

tdc_worm

· #15 · Jan 6, 2022

Dougal said:
The +30% is because Craig will have his own internal design rules dictating spring force at bottom-out be a multiple of sprung weight etc. Doesn't mean you have to adhere to those if your riding is different.

When you reduce spring rate and keep weight constant, doesn't sag increase? How is appropriate sag achieved?

Dougal

· #16 · Jan 6, 2022

tdc_worm said:
When you reduce spring rate and keep weight constant, doesn't sag increase? How is appropriate sag achieved?

Preload.

But sag is not the target and never will be.

Suns_PSD

· #17 · Jan 6, 2022

Preston67 said:
Just another voice chiming in - I have push coil and Avy damper in a 36, and its fantastic, I have no desire to pursue anything more. I do have the hydraulic anti-bottom upgrade in the damper which may help with progression and bottom out - I don't put air in the Push "bottom out" chamber as I could never really tell a difference and its such a tiny volume that I had to re-check it every ride (as it would leak down) so I just quit monkeying with it.

Best wishes for Craig's recovery, as I've been a happy Avy customer for decades as well - don't know what I'd do if I needed something !

Fair warning I ordered a Bomber CR upgrade last April and they didn't have me send in my shock for work until August !!! So if you're planning on something I'd move sooner rather than later.
(also, this bomber is the bomb, another masterpiece from Craig).

I've had 2 Avy forks and 2 shocks. My buddy got the hybrid and the bomber shock.
That Hybrid fork felt way nicer than mine with just the cartridge.
Also, that rear coil was just beautiful, way nicer than I ever could get my EXT.
Say what you want about Craig, but that mofo knows his suspension.
I sure hope Craig pulls out of this Covid thing.

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karpiel

· #18 · Jan 6, 2022

Suns_PSD said:
I've had 2 Avy forks and 2 shocks. My buddy got the hybrid and the bomber shock.
That Hybrid fork felt way nicer than mine with just the cartridge.
Also, that rear coil was just beautiful, way nicer than I ever could get my EXT.
Say what you want about Craig, but that mofo knows his suspension.
I sure hope Craig pulls out of this Covid thing.

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Just curious which EXT damper you had/have and did it have a custom tune or a generic one ?

Suns_PSD

· #19 · Jan 6, 2022

karpiel said:
Just curious which EXT damper you had/have and did it have a custom tune or a generic one ?

It was a new EXT Arma set up for my bike and ordered new.

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johnsogr

· #20 · Jan 6, 2022

I’ve used Push, EXT, and Avy on various bikes and I’d rank them:

1. Avy
2. EXT
3. Push

I am not a very aggressive rider these days, no big gap jumps, but lots of rocky tech if that helps people decide.

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