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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Looks promising, anyone tried it yet?!



(Picture used is our fox 36 hybrid coil conversion, fox 40 and boxer 35 will look similar)
Hybrid Coil spring kits for Boxxer and Fox40/Bomber Z58 Air Forks

The coil kits supports about half the rider weight and the air spring makes up for the other half of the support needed. Now the air side can be used to fine tune the spring rate needed as well as adjust the ride height for different riding conditions, also the air ramp-up can be controlled with the traditional tokens or aftermarket ramp up adjustment devices. The advantage of the hybrid system is versatility, performance, weight, and cost savings. It simply drops into the damper side, only adds about 200 grams, it solves most of the air spring issues in the first half of the stroke, where the friction forces and small bump compliance are critical, more supportive, it fills in the midstroke wallow of the air spring and corrects the ride height with physical adjustable preload. When the fork gets deeper in the stroke the spring force is more dominant and the stiction and air spring concerns are not as noticeable, so the final spring force is not as sensitive as long as it is more linear and removal of the tokens is now possible with proper damping. The air spring can be set to very low pressures and as linear as possible where it is nearly negligible. Ride height and spring rate can be fine tuned with the air spring pressure which is very helpful when in between spring rates and allows for different riding conditions. The equal force system is a very important feature because now the fork compresses equally with about the same spring rate in both stanchions, a single spring system causes the unsprung side to compress ahead the spring side because of the flexibility of the crown and lowers, this causes stiction in the first half of the travel which is more of a contributor than the air spring stiction. The abs system that we sell as an option to our damper is still available but in most cases will not be not necessary because of the air hybrid ramp up is sufficient to prevent bottoming.
The Hybrid coil and air system uses only one spring on the damper side and the stock air spring system makes up for the remaining support needed.
This allows for a coil feel with a supportive midstroke, sag can be adjusted with air pressure and end stroke can be controlled with tokens or an aftermarket ramp device like the MRP ramp control or the Runt.

Available for Fox 36 2015-2019 150/160 mm forks.
Source: http://instagr.am/p/BylEk4UH9ab/ j
 

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Nice! That could be the best of both worlds
Or worst...

One of the biggest pluses of a coil spring is not having an an air spring. No seals, no leaks, no air buildup, no seal heads. This keeps all that mess! Biggest, maybe only downside is weight. This is even heavier than a standard coil.

I want to be all about coils, but I was doing coil "conversions" with RS forks when the pike was a 32mm fork. It was about 40 bucks and dropped right in, top cap, bottom bolts, the whole works. It seemed a bit high when they jumped up to $75-85 for the kits, but now we're cracking $400+, and it seems like insanity.

I loved the conversion for how budget it was. Zero maintenance, zero upkeep costs, just clean performance for cheap. Hard to get behind now.
 

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After further reading...

From the Avalanche website
'Uneven compression from single spring systems adds friction and causes twisting of the arch and legs.
By placing a spring in each leg with very similar rates the fork can compress without twisting or leaning to one side'

Whether its a single coil spring or air, this compression force is on one side of pretty much all mtb forks. Do they twist and distort that much to create problematic stiction or friction?

Sounded like a not very well thought out point of difference that isn't really a problem that needed to be solved. My long smashpot spring seems to be doing a splendid job!
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Whether its a single coil spring or air, this compression force is on one side of pretty much all mtb forks. Do they twist and distort that much to create problematic stiction or friction?
I've already asked myself this question but thought it was probably too dumb to ask! Apparently not :)

So is this a real thing? Or it's so negligible that nobody talks or care about it?
 

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I've already asked myself this question but thought it was probably too dumb to ask! Apparently not :)

So is this a real thing? Or it's so negligible that nobody talks or care about it?
Hmmmm I thought even the moto guys agree that it's a non-issue and their forks don't use a brace. Would be tricky but interesting to measure, maybe displacement pots on each leg and see if theres a difference? Measure the top of the rim during a front on impact? Strain gauges on the lower would be ideal.

Even if it does exist, front-to-back binding is a worse problem that you can't eliminate from a telescopic fork
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Ordered an Ava Cartridge with HSB and the Hybrid Coil for my 36 Fit4, should be here in the next few weeks, super excited. I'll post up when it get here and give some thoughts.
Yes please :)

Have you ever used avalanche before? Thinking really hard about buying a damper from them.
 

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maybe displacement pots on each leg and see if theres a difference? Measure the top of the rim during a front on impact? Strain gauges on the lower would be ideal.
More than 15 mm on a boxxer 35. It's that huge and you could probaly see it with slow-mo camera. (I assume it is a possible reason the moco rebound piston has about this much margin from the "baseplate", but that's just an personal opinion)Top of the rim won't tell much due to he rim moving the opposite way, due to geometry and "trail value".
But I don't know about the binding it could do
 

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More than 15 mm on a boxxer 35. It's that huge and you could probaly see it with slow-mo camera. (I assume it is a possible reason the moco rebound piston has about this much margin from the "baseplate", but that's just an personal opinion)Top of the rim won't tell much due to he rim moving the opposite way, due to geometry and "trail value".
But I don't know about the binding it could do
So the damper leg was using 15mm more travel than the spring? How did you measure that?

Not sure what you mean about the rim? you can't twist the lowers of a fork without the rim tyre/rim moving closer to one side? That was for a front on impact only, any side load on the rim would flex it away from the load
 

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The rim will both "turn" around the hub and move sideway. So the side that is in the arch won't move in predictible ways. Wheel design and trail value are both effecting the movement.

there is two ways to measure that, either measuring all the parts, or measuring the shaft topped out when the lowers aren't in place, and comparing with spring side.
I don't know how it is with the charger, but pretty sure there would be some similar feature. The damper shaft will touch the lowers before spring shaft when you put back them.

Edit:
I didn't answer the question.
I learnt it with mistakes and pain. Didn't measure it, but if you aim for 20mm margin, there is no more "issues". top out or bottom out. Less doesn't work well...
 

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I wonder if it's possible to swap back to the stock damper later on?

I know that coils can mess up internal coatings enough that going back to air is problematic. This would allow a user to experiment with this setup, determine is viability, and go back to stock, or potentially move the Avy Hybrid to another fork later on.

Avalanche seemingly has slowed down with new products in the last couple of years (probably because he's so busy doing upgrades on crappy OEM dampers), so it's great to see Craig doing some new products. There was a lull there for a bit, I think that's partially why they switched away from "Avalanche Downhill" to "Avalanche Suspension" - I think the market for custom downhill shocks may still be there, but the market for high performance trail oriented stuff is ramping up. Would love to Avy modernize and lighten up their coils, damper cartridge or better yet, a fully in-house built air shock.
 

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Or worst...

One of the biggest pluses of a coil spring is not having an an air spring. No seals, no leaks, no air buildup, no seal heads. This keeps all that mess! Biggest, maybe only downside is weight. This is even heavier than a standard coil.

I want to be all about coils, but I was doing coil "conversions" with RS forks when the pike was a 32mm fork. It was about 40 bucks and dropped right in, top cap, bottom bolts, the whole works. It seemed a bit high when they jumped up to $75-85 for the kits, but now we're cracking $400+, and it seems like insanity.

I loved the conversion for how budget it was. Zero maintenance, zero upkeep costs, just clean performance for cheap. Hard to get behind now.
I'm guessing the "air" side will be much less problematic since you are using significantly less air pressure which may help with reliability.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
I wonder if it's possible to swap back to the stock damper later on?

I know that coils can mess up internal coatings enough that going back to air is problematic. This would allow a user to experiment with this setup, determine is viability, and go back to stock
For what it's worth, I've been using a Boxxer RC (With a coil) for two seasons and converted it into a Boxxer WC (air spring + new damper) and it was absolutely fine. Even after the "rubbing", the inside of the stanchion was super clean and did not leak air after the upgrade.

Once I receive the Avalanche damper I'll try both the debonair and the ACS3 (currently in the fork) so I'll let you know if going back to an air spring worked. Now let's keep in mind that spring diameters, surfaces, material etc ... could be different from one brand to another, so one might not cause damage and the other one could.
 

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So where are we at with the Hybrid coil setups?

What is the total cost of install? $400+?
 
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