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Yes, you are daft.

TruckeeLocal said:
My understanding is that you purchased one of the early Truths.
Nope.

TruckeeLocal said:
with a defective rocker
Nope.

TruckeeLocal said:
that Ellsworth tried to, but failed in certain instances, recall.
I've never heard of a recall on defective Truth rockers.

TruckeeLocal said:
Your Truth, with the defective rocker, broke.
Nope.

TruckeeLocal said:
You were understandably upset.
Nope.

TruckeeLocal said:
Now you have a broken Id ?
Nope.

TruckeeLocal said:
Why on earth would you get a second one after your negative experiences ?
I wouldn't.

TruckeeLocal said:
I may well be daft, as evidenced by me responding to your posts from time to time.
Definitely daft based upon your replies. They are so far from the truth that it's gone beyond funny to sad.

TruckeeLocal said:
That's your call what you think of my intelligence based on extremely limited information.?
Nope. It's based upon numerous posts wherein you display your cluelessness and the challenges you face in the critical thinking department.


TruckeeLocal said:
But I still don't have the Ellsworth tattoo.
Yet you still post as if you do.

TruckeeLocal said:
Incidentally I assumed that you meant the "Ellsworth Owner" thing as a joke.
Nice attempt at a backpedal although it fails given your previous claim.

"That is a factually incorrect statement. Reference An attack by Pete (who'll claim he was joking). This is not an unprecented attack either. "
 

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Overall philosophy

damion said:
will want to read the "Ellsworth warranty" thread that is on the General Discussion board. Pay close attention to how Tony Ellsworth responds to the posts. In this case, it is easy to read between the lines.
The stories of warranty issues are numerous. In addition, there seems to be a general tendency to deal in half-truths and amiguous information. Case in point: look at the photo of the '04 Id and listed specs on the current website. They show it in "all-mountain" configuration: 6" (or is it 5.75"?) Romic shock, 6" (150mm) Z150 fork, and what look like Nokian 2.3 tires. They list the head angle at 69.5, the bottom bracket at 14", the standover (for a 17") at 31", measured to the middle of the top tube. Good all-mountain specs (although a slightly high BB). Assuming this is a 17" frame, and they measure unsagged (like everyone else on the planet), I would like to know the ACTUAL measurements of the PICTURED bike. I would guess, from personal experience, that the head angle is probably right with that long fork, the bottom bracket is at least 15.5", and the standover at least 34". But would anyone BUY a bike with those specs? The only way to get to the 14" BB and 31" standover is with VERY low profile tires (probably 1.9s), a 5" shock, and probably a 3" fork (which would leave you with wacky geometry and 72+ head angle). So instead, they somehow come up with decent listed specs that cannot occur on an actual bike. And then they introduce the Moment to fix the goof and fill the niche the Id was originally marketed for, without acknowledging the Id's poor "all-mountain" design, or offering dissatisfied Id buyers an upgrade path/price break on the Moment. So, DO YOUR HOMEWORK BEFORE YOU BUY! And anyone who orders any frame without actually seeing one and confirming its published specs/geometry--shame on you. I know, I did it.
 

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Besides I really think it makes the Turner fans look like trolls when they come to the EW forum just to post bad news, negative comments about Tony E, and such if they aren't even considering buying an EW. - Bikezilla quote

You mean like Pete and steve3, at least Pete has firsthand knowledege and a reason to be pissed.
 

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rroeder said:
Besides I really think it makes the Turner fans look like trolls when they come to the EW forum just to post bad news, negative comments about Tony E, and such if they aren't even considering buying an EW. - Bikezilla quote

You mean like Pete and steve3, at least Pete has firsthand knowledege and a reason to be pissed.
How do you get through doorways with that enormous chip on your shoulder?

I'm a "Turner fan" and a "troll" because I share the truth about Ellsworth?

p.s. What makes me a "Turner fan" as opposed to an "Ibis fan" as opposed to a "Foes fan" etc., etc. etc. and what bearing does that have on the facts regarding Ellsworth?
 

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Hill crawler
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Some responses

steve3 said:
As far as everything else you say, respectfully, you take this whole thing way too seriously
Hmmm. How do you know how seriously I'm taking this ? To be pedantic you should say that you think I'm taking this thing way too seriously.


steve3 said:
The interested parties are in this now, so let it be. I am NOT the judge, jury, and executioner. Ther disgruntled customers, business associates, and dealers are. Ultimately, we're all the j,j,and e if you want to look at it differently.
If I understand correctly you are not one of the group of stakeholders that you identify.

steve3 said:
You've never had a bad experience with any product and spoken about it???
Actually I have. In these forums even. With my experience with Audi's customer service. But it was MY experience that I was relating, not somebody else's.

steve3 said:
In effect, you not purchasing something, or speaking of something makes you the judge, jury, and executioner yourself.
Agreed. Sort of. The reason, for example, that I don't have a Turner is 'cause I got an Ellsworth. I make no judgement against Turner 'cause I got an Ellsworth and it would be silly of me to get both given my requirements and current stable. Same with getting an Audi instead of a Mercedes, or a Cobalt instead of a Fountain, or whatever. Getting one doesn't necessarily make for a negative judgement of the other.

steve3 said:
Please, lets let bygones be bygones and speak ont he issue of the company because you will not be presenting a case for Ellsworth by talking about me.
I absolutely agree. And to that end I would try and highlight the area of confusion. You appear to be totally focussed on the customer service/business ethics (perceived) of Ellsworth. Meanwhile owners (and some potential owners ?) are, generally, focussed on the bicycle and how well it functions given the requirements of chosen trails and conditions. Some here can even relate a positive customer service experience which is contrary to the negative ones, many of which are rehashed from years ago, that seem to be given so much more credence. And I fully recognize that a broken Ellsworth, or a frame from any other manufacturer, does not function. But it is very troubling to try and discuss this dichotomy with folks' who are not stake holders in the debate. In a forum designed, I think, for those very stakeholders. And, remarkably, we have had the manufacturer, a major stakeholder, available to help/hinder this debate. Will other manufacturers follow his lead based on the reception he received ? Not if they have any sense.
 

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Look Steve, I'm assuming your name is Steve, I don't dispute any of whats been said about TE(at least the firsthand accounts) although some of its hard to believe and I have seen some untrue statements made here. My point to you is why are you so involved, let the people who have firsthand knowledge speak. You said yourself, don't take it so seriously, but you continue to bring up the same stuff. By the way, I think Turners are awesome bikes and I don't think its a Turner vs. Ell. thing at all-I just don't understand why some of you Turner guys are so worried about TE and his business.
 

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Oh come on now Pete, we all know your a troll-just kidding. Remember what steve3 said, don't take this so seriously. HeHe
 

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rroeder said:
Oh come on now Pete, we all know your a troll-just kidding. Remember what steve3 said, don't take this so seriously. HeHe
Seriously? I'm laughing my ass off at your claim.

It's also funny that you apparently can't answer the questions that I posed.
 

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orthonormal
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TruckeeLocal said:
I don't know why but there's a few folks trying to sabotage Ellsworth's business. And Tony Ellsworth has chosen to defend his company in these forums. I would think having the owner of a bike company available in these forums is a net positive, except to those that don't want to hear his point of view.

Anyway anyone considering an Ellsworth product may get a wider perspective from a lot more folks about the actual products by going to the review section Ellsworth Reviews
Your take on this issue strikes me as paranoid and defensive. I haven't had much to say in these threads other than to relate my personal experience with Ellsworth's customer service and even then only because Larry Mettler mentioned it and someone else asked for details.

Ellsworth bicycles ride very well. No dispute there. Some people take issue with Ellsworth's warranty policies, others don't. Fair enough. The warranty policy is what it is and more often than not, customers are treated well by Ellsworth when making warranty claims.

On the other hand, I find it hard to believe that anyone would find it acceptable for Ellsworth to 1) accuse a legitimate customer with proof of purchase of trying to warranty a stolen frame (that's me) 2) deliberately edit a magazine review in such a way that the conclusion is altered and 3) lie about said magazine review in a public forum.

Those are the three issues about which I have first-hand knowledge. I also know of several "industry insider" stories which I won't repeat because they are second hand. In any case, I believe the real reason Ellsworth takes so much heat here is not because of problems with the bikes or problems with their warranty policy but because of unethical behavior. I'm dumbfounded that so many people are willing to overlook Ellsworth's ethical lapses just because they have a bike that rides well.
 

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Let's Go Ride!!!!!!

Seriously.
Enough!

You are always going to have happy and unhappy customers. It is impossible to please everyone.

I am in sales and work my hardest to sell as much as I can and also keep all my customers happy. It is impossible.

I ride a Truth and love it!!!!!
Would I buy another? Definitely yes! I love everything about it and would recommend it to others.

People who are upset are going to complain. Sometimes loudly and to those who don't want to hear it.
People who are happy usually don't say anything. So we are hearing a lot of the unhappy customers right now.

If the weather (at least here in Philadelphia) were any better, I would not even be reading this. I would be riding.

I just want to take my Truth out and RIDE!!!!!!
 

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Pete said:
Seriously? I'm laughing my ass off at your claim.

It's also funny that you apparently can't answer the questions that I posed.

The relevance is that most of the bashing is coming from Turner owners.
As far as the chip on my shoulder, I'm not the one bashing another brand.
 

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Some Thoughts

TruckeeLocal said:
You appear to be totally focussed on the customer service/business ethics (perceived) of Ellsworth. Meanwhile owners (and some potential owners ?) are, generally, focussed on the bicycle and how well it functions given the requirements of chosen trails and conditions.

Very few people focus on customer service until they have a problem. Then it's too late. When most people see Lifetime Warranty or Limited Lifetime Warranty, they think it really is Lifetime....and that the limited part has to do with defects in materials or workmanship, abuse, etc....NOT that if there are no parts in stock (evidently no great effort is made to ensure that replacement parts are available) that they will have to pay. That's a form of bait and switch. Get extra sales by offering a Lifetime Warranty but don't honor it.
I'm currently not in the market for an Ellsworth, but a good friend of mine is looking for a new bike and he's considering an Ellsworth Truth or ID. He asked me what I know about the bikes and the company. I told him that I didn't know much about Ellsworth bikes, but would check MTBR.com and see what I could find.....both positive and negative. Here's a quick summary of my findings here (all based on reviews and posts):

1) Most Ellsworth owners love the way their bikes look and perform.

2) The Lifetime warranty isn't really a lifetime warranty. It seems that some people that had frame failures within a given model year were pleased with the service.....some weren't. THe one's that were unhappy about the warranty service was when it was related to the Lifetime Warranty. They were unhappy about paying for frame replacements when it should have been covered for free.

3) Tony Ellsworth has posted a few times and apparently confirmed the fact that the Lifetime Warranty isn't really a lifetime warranty (it's only lifetime when he has the parts in stock or hasn't changed the model. Well....he changes the model almost every year and stated that he does not focus on stocking replacement parts). THat is not a Lifetime Warranty. It's called bait and switch. Use the lure of a lifetime warranty to close the deal.

4) When Ellsworth decided to stand up for himself by "speaking for" other manufacturers.......One manufacturer, Sherwood from Ventana, wrote back that he didn't want Ellsworth speaking for him....and then alluded that Ellsworth either caused his own problems or deserved them. "Otherwise, kindly keep me and my company out of your well earned battles...

Sincerely
Sherwood"

I got most of the negative posts from the General Forum....some here. I came here to get more information and noticed that there are some very happy Ellsworth owners. This leads me to believe that Ellsworth does not treat everyone unfairly.....just some.

The bottom line is that I will recommend against buying an Ellsworth. Good bikes.....questionable service.
 

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Trucking & Extortion
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First Off, im not a current Turner owner, i did, and will again, but not right now. My friend i DH with when at my house in Arizona had a previous generation Dare. long story short he broke it (what a surprise). I only see this guy 1-2 times a year and really like riding with him, but because ellsworth wanted way too much for a whole new dare (nothing could be done with the old one), he ended up trying to DH on a stumpjumper which kind of ruined our day because i had to ride it when i let him use my turner. Jim (my friend) told me that when he called ellsworth's customer service dpt. they treated him like total ****, so he then talked to tony and he treated Jim even worse. I see Tony Ellsworth responsible for ruining my DH fun on vacation and thats my reason for hating him and his company. His business practices are the worst in the industry, just flat out last. As for this thread i think its hilarous. Pete makes me laugh my A$$ off making fun of that stupid $hit truckee
 

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rroeder said:
The relevance is that most of the bashing is coming from Turner owners.
As far as the chip on my shoulder, I'm not the one bashing another brand.
Why do some fragile types equate sharing the truth, with bashing? If my transmission breaks and it takes the dealer 5 tries to fix it, am I bashing them if I tell someone about that experience?

On what basis do you make your specious claim that most of the bashing is coming from Turner owners?

Thanks for even more chuckles.
 

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Ride4Fun said:
As an Ellsworth owner I feel our bikes are on par with Chris King quality. A few months after I bought my Ellsworth I got a call from Mrs Ellsworth. She wanted to know how I liked my bike and if there were there any questions.She was very pleasent. To me that was class A customer realations. I have owned 4 other brands and never got a call from the owner.
You are entitled to think that a follow-up call solves any future ACTUAL warranty issues. Me, I'm not so gullible. I wonder about OVERALL CS treatment, not just individualized cases. And the evidence of Ellsworth's INCONSISTENT CS treatment is legion... right here in MTBR to start, and among my personal friends it has continued. A good friend had a Truth, loved its ride, but it buckled on the downtube from regular use and couldn't be warrantied, accdg to Tony E. Lots of coin made in profit, little returned through CS/warranty issues.

Here's what I said in the Gen'l Discussions thread:

former Ells owner who wouldn't buy another... I bought a 1999 Isis, which busted at the swingarm yoke weld. They gave me great CS, a new swingarm w/in a week, no questions asked, didn't have to send the broken one in first, etc. Very smooth. But the kicker really isn't that I got good service -- in fact, EVERY Ells owner should get good service... and that's where the problem lies. The more I followed Ells bikes and talked to current/prior Ells owners, the more I realized that my good CS experience was anomalous at best. That didn't serve Ells very well when I decided to get a longer-travel bike to replace the Isis. Immediately, the Joker was off my list. Pete's experiences with his Id are enough to turn any smart consumer's stomach. The Moment is a cheesy attempt to keep up with Turner and Ventana. Ellsworth do not deserve anyone's business, but unfortunately they get a lot of business. Mainly this is because you don't hear of the vague and shady treatment of warranty issues unless you do research in here BEFORE you order your Ells. And I'm willing to bet that there are many Ells owners who didn't research their choice here in advance.
 

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wheeler
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Amen, this thread's been up top for long enough with same comments in each reply. I think ppl who care get the point boys/girls.
Now go out and ride (weather permiting) whatever you ride and relax, enjoy life.
I doubt very much that any of the comments above will stray ppl away from buying an Ells. :D :D :rolleyes:
 

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TT. said:
Amen, this thread's been up top for long enough with same comments in each reply. I think ppl who care get the point boys/girls.
Now go out and ride (weather permiting) whatever you ride and relax, enjoy life.
I doubt very much that any of the comments above will stray ppl away from buying an Ells.
How typically clueless.

People need to ride and/or relax because they are discussing something that causes you discomfort.

Silly, yet nonetheless funny.

Oh well, off to ride soon for my 14th day out of the last 16 days...
 

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Pete said:
Why do some fragile types equate sharing the truth, with bashing? If my transmission breaks and it takes the dealer 5 tries to fix it, am I bashing them if I tell someone about that experience?

On what basis do you make your specious claim that most of the bashing is coming from Turner owners?

Thanks for even more chuckles.
I'm fragile because I'm tired of hearing the same stuff over and over. I have no problem hearing firsthand accounts, but you and others continue to bring up the same stuff about TE and your beating a dead horse at this point. By the way, the doorway I use because of the enormous chip on my shoulder might come in handy for you and your inflated head to walk thru.
 

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rroeder said:
I'm fragile because I'm tired of hearing the same stuff over and over.
Who is forcing you to read a thread that is causing you distress? Have you no self-control?

rroeder said:
I have no problem hearing firsthand accounts, but you and others continue to bring up the same stuff about TE and your beating a dead horse at this point.
Again, who is forcing you to read a thread that you consider to be "beating a dead horse"?

Also, if you have no problem with firsthand accounts, why do you have a problem with me sharing my experience? You're contradicting yourself, which at this point is hardly surprising.

rroeder said:
By the way, the doorway I use because of the enormous chip on my shoulder might come in handy for you and your inflated head to walk thru.
What a strange response. If it makes you feel better about yourself, I'm happy for you.

Cheers.

p.s. You forgot to answer this question:

On what basis do you make your specious claim that most of the bashing is coming from Turner owners?
 

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Art is Resistance
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Wow,
I know we've reached flogged dead horse status, but i feel like giving my two cents.

I've never owned an Ellsworth. I did work as a manager as a shop that sold them, and have ridden them on more than one occasion. It's a nice riding bike BUT...
They all broke. Or at elast most of them.

Many of them broke in the same manner, and every time i called Ellsworth, i got the same response: "Wow, I've never heard of that happening!" 4 times in a row on the same failure i heard that. A couple i got warrantied after many calls, a couple i didn't. I did hear the usual runaround crap that other people have mentioned here. Lifetime warranty my ass.

Other companies i dealt with (some very big, some medium, and a couple other small) were NEVER this hard to deal with. It got to the point to where we refused to sell them and dropped the line. We just felt that we were kind of lying to our customers by saying Ellsworth had a lifetime warranty when it so obviously did not.

I would never support a company that was so shady in it's practices. There are plenty of good bikes out there to choose from that perform as well as or better than Ellsworth, and all are less money. Bikes aren't status symbols, especially once they fail and the warranty doesn't ring true.
 
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