Anyone considering an Ellsworth bike...
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314 Posts
Are you trying to be helpful ?
I don't know why but there's a few folks trying to sabotage Ellsworth's business. And Tony Ellsworth has chosen to defend his company in these forums. I would think having the owner of a bike company available in these forums is a net positive, except to those that don't want to hear his point of view.
Anyway anyone considering an Ellsworth product may get a wider perspective from a lot more folks about the actual products by going to the review section Ellsworth Reviews
I don't know why but there's a few folks trying to sabotage Ellsworth's business. And Tony Ellsworth has chosen to defend his company in these forums. I would think having the owner of a bike company available in these forums is a net positive, except to those that don't want to hear his point of view.
Anyway anyone considering an Ellsworth product may get a wider perspective from a lot more folks about the actual products by going to the review section Ellsworth Reviews
Guys, please go to YOUR forum...
Hey guys, let's get one thing straight. We all ride. It's a downright shame we have to regress into this "my bike is better than yours" crap. If you don't like Ellsworths, FINE....good for you. I'm pumped that your proud of your Turner, your Ventana, your Titus. Heck, if you have a Giant Rainier, that's great.
I know over 20 Ellsworth owners, including myself. We all love our bikes. No breaks, no problems, no warranty issues, just a great bike.
You think Tony Ellsworth is in this for the cash??? If you know anything about the bike industry, than you know there's not a manufacturer on the planet that's cleaning up and raking in millions. Is he doing this for free? I sure as heck hope not b/c there are much easier ways to make a buck these days.
Go to your respective forums. Talk amongst yourselves about the bikes you own, and why you love them. Us Ellsworth owners just want to do the same. Without the insults, without the badgering, and without the pretense that we don't know about the product we paid thousands of dollars for....
Hey guys, let's get one thing straight. We all ride. It's a downright shame we have to regress into this "my bike is better than yours" crap. If you don't like Ellsworths, FINE....good for you. I'm pumped that your proud of your Turner, your Ventana, your Titus. Heck, if you have a Giant Rainier, that's great.
I know over 20 Ellsworth owners, including myself. We all love our bikes. No breaks, no problems, no warranty issues, just a great bike.
You think Tony Ellsworth is in this for the cash??? If you know anything about the bike industry, than you know there's not a manufacturer on the planet that's cleaning up and raking in millions. Is he doing this for free? I sure as heck hope not b/c there are much easier ways to make a buck these days.
Go to your respective forums. Talk amongst yourselves about the bikes you own, and why you love them. Us Ellsworth owners just want to do the same. Without the insults, without the badgering, and without the pretense that we don't know about the product we paid thousands of dollars for....
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10,127 Posts
I have to speak up....mbexx said:
We REALLY don't need another my bike is better than your bike flamefest. We've had them before and both brands come out tarnished because of tit for tat posts, and personal comments.
IMO MTBR did a really good thing by creating mfgr forums so bike owners of various brands and potential shoppers could discuss various issues without some of the negative things that used to occur.
Please, let's let the Ellsworth riders enjoy their forum and post news help and/or issues for themselves or they just might not come back. We'll all loose out in the general, shock, brake and other forums w/o their participation. Besides I really think it makes the Turner fans look like trolls when they come to the EW forum just to post bad news, negative comments about Tony E, and such if they aren't even considering buying an EW.
Answering questions? cool, voicing opinions about comparisons, cool, saying hey look over there, real dirt on the brand....eh well, we all can read.
A lot of people are happy on their EW's (including the guy who sits in front of me, and one for my regular riding buddies) I don't think the EW's are any less durable than most of the other bike companies. Their warranty policy is documented. TE, for good or bad does address the MTBR community which is something few other bike mfgrs do. Take his comments for what you will and move on. It's not like he eats babies. Plus if we abuse the few mfgrs that do post, others won't even try.
TE has spoken to all the issues raised before, I posted links to try to head off rehashing it all over again. It's in the archives, and now it's here so let's leave it up to the others to read it for themselves.
Never mind TE, Let's not create a lot of bad feelings...everyone's got em, just think how you'd feel if it was the other way around. We all love our bikes that's a common ground we should appreciate.
Just my .02 (Sorry don't mean to be preachy I just don't want MY bikes brand dragged through the mud either)
Great post couldn't of said it better. As an Ellsworth owner I feel our bikes are on par with Chris King quality. A few months after I bought my Ellsworth I got a call from Mrs Ellsworth. She wanted to know how I liked my bike and if there were there any questions.She was very pleasent. To me that was class A customer realations. I have owned 4 other brands and never got a call from the owner.mbexx said:
So lets just go out there ride what ever we want and stop bashing.
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1,395 Posts
Interesting story from my friend who owns a Truth.
When he was in the LBS shipping his broken Truth back to ellsworth a lady there asked how much it cost. When he told her she laughed and said something to the effect of "Now I know how Tony affords that mansion he lives in". She supposedly lived right next to him when she lived in CA. No idea if this woman was full of it or not, but I wonder how much money TE really makes?
I agree that Ellsworth does seem to get bashed a lot on these forums. Honestly though, do you think that people just decided to pick on Tony? Or are there real reasons why he gets vilified on these pages? The dealer that sold my friend his truth no longer covers Ellsworth, and he said that _EVERY_ truth he sold broke. He mentioned that my friends truth was the last one that he had sold that hadn't broken. My bud had to shell out 275 for a new shock and was originally told he would have to pay 250 for a new rocker arms as well, but Ellsworth finally did cover that.
FWIW, I do think it's appropriate to come to the Ellsworth page and post concerns about the warrantee coverage since people in the market for them will look @ this page.
That being said it seems to me that the majority of the Truth breakage issues were earlier models (I.e. the 2001 was especially prone to breaking) and you see many less broken Truths nowdays.
It also seems that Ellsworth can be very responsive in some situations. Whenever a thread comes out about the warrantee there are always a bunch of people who jump on and sing praises about how quickly Ellsworth replaced a broken frame part.
My friend absolutely loves the ride of the his new truth (2004 front/2001 rear). He couldn't be happier with the bike. Hopefully it will hold up for him because it really is a sweet riding bike.
Take it easy.
Dave
When he was in the LBS shipping his broken Truth back to ellsworth a lady there asked how much it cost. When he told her she laughed and said something to the effect of "Now I know how Tony affords that mansion he lives in". She supposedly lived right next to him when she lived in CA. No idea if this woman was full of it or not, but I wonder how much money TE really makes?
I agree that Ellsworth does seem to get bashed a lot on these forums. Honestly though, do you think that people just decided to pick on Tony? Or are there real reasons why he gets vilified on these pages? The dealer that sold my friend his truth no longer covers Ellsworth, and he said that _EVERY_ truth he sold broke. He mentioned that my friends truth was the last one that he had sold that hadn't broken. My bud had to shell out 275 for a new shock and was originally told he would have to pay 250 for a new rocker arms as well, but Ellsworth finally did cover that.
FWIW, I do think it's appropriate to come to the Ellsworth page and post concerns about the warrantee coverage since people in the market for them will look @ this page.
That being said it seems to me that the majority of the Truth breakage issues were earlier models (I.e. the 2001 was especially prone to breaking) and you see many less broken Truths nowdays.
It also seems that Ellsworth can be very responsive in some situations. Whenever a thread comes out about the warrantee there are always a bunch of people who jump on and sing praises about how quickly Ellsworth replaced a broken frame part.
My friend absolutely loves the ride of the his new truth (2004 front/2001 rear). He couldn't be happier with the bike. Hopefully it will hold up for him because it really is a sweet riding bike.
Take it easy.
Dave
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2,173 Posts
Bystander opinion
You'll notice that I have not posted about this in either thread until now - I'm hardly a EW basher. Frankly, TE's business practices are of little importance to me personally but the soap opera is fun to watch.
To sum up: Real or perceived, Tony has a real problem on his hands regarding customer service.
which is exactly why are not able to speak to TE's customer service. Every company makes mistakes - it's how you deal with those mistakes that determines what kind of company you are. Tony's customer relations are suspect. While I feel that some of the issues raised are overblown, it's hard to argue with many of the points that the posters in the other thread make.mbexx said:
You'll notice that I have not posted about this in either thread until now - I'm hardly a EW basher. Frankly, TE's business practices are of little importance to me personally but the soap opera is fun to watch.
To sum up: Real or perceived, Tony has a real problem on his hands regarding customer service.
I don't own an Ellsworth. The reason I don't comes down to size. What's up with no XL size bike ever being offerred? If I did try to ride a 19" or a 20" I would have to deal with a WAY extended 27.2mm post! Even at 195lbs, a bike with questionable durability, poor warranty and a hefty price tag, IMO it would not be a wise move for me. Why not 31.6? It seems most of the durable well made frames out there(except for Turner, but he has an XL with a reinforced 21" seat tube) use 31.6. Can anyone shed some light? If I am missing something I apologize...By the way I don't own a Turner either, but since they do offer the XL I would buy the 5 Spot before an ID or Moment, even though I think they are really nice looking bikes.
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314 Posts
Wonky Sizing
I'm 5'11", 195 pounds. I run a Medium Id. Hence a large Id might fit you just right. But you've already excluded Ellsworth from your shortlist for whatever reason (why are you here?). But rather than listening to Steve3 or Damion who like posting negative observations on Ellsworth wouldn't you do better to try one for size ? Or listen to Pete. who's actually experienced problems with Ellsworth frame breakage and resulting negative CS (but reading some of Pete.s' posts might put you off listening to him too) - at least he has put his money where his mouth is and says he has bought a 5-spot. I didn't try a Turner when I bought my Id - I wanted the features that Ellsworth offered and have encountered very positive responses from Ellsworth - I originally ordered a large which was way too big and it was swopped for a medium without any problems and I got a followup call from Ellsworth to make sure everything was fine. So much for poor customer service, but some here (visiting from their home manufacturer forum ?) would consider that exceptional rather than the norm.b_tnilc said:
I was just being honest about my concerns because Ellsworth would be considered if they offered a larger size. The 19 or 20 is an inch shorter in the top tube and 2 to 3 in the seat tube of most XL's. If they ever made an XL I would seriously consider one(maybe someone will see this post). Anyway wasn't trying to offend but I am 6'4" with long arms and legs. I still don't understand the 27.2mm post size. Does anyone know benefits of this?TruckeeLocal said:
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Try Ellsworth's Technical Support
Some Ellsworth owners, myself included, can be a little sensitive due to the volume of unfounded negative posts - I've tried to point folks to a more reasonable source for information in this thread. Anyway you can always approach Ellsworth's Technical Support and/or Customer Service about your questions. My guess is that they've standardized on the 27.2mm seatpost size and related tubing in their design. Plus you can always get a longer stem, a layback seatpost (although Ellsworth specifically says not to), and longer cranks (which would work well with the Id due to the higher BB). Whatever. It's your toy you're looking to get. Please use and enjoy whatever you end up with.b_tnilc said:
For the record, I am not trying to attack anyone...
It you go to my prior posts, either on the new board or the old, you will see that I do not take part in flaming one ride/rider or attack individuals. As a avid mt. biker, and shop employee, I always try to be helpful. I am not trying to start a "my bike is better than yours" type of thread. I am only trying to get potential owners to make an informed decision.
Personally, if you are going to offer a warranty replacement, I think the company needs to pony up for what ever is needed to get their riders back on the trail. The last time I warrantied a frame, the shock and the shock mount placement changed, so the company replaced the front triangle, the shock, and all hardware needed to get me riding again. Charging $ for replacement rockers or other bits that are needed is a flawed way to handle CS.
I personally trust Larry Mettler at Mt. High cyclery, and trust his judgement. His responses to questions over the last year I have been viewing have always been useful. If he was an Ellsworth dealer, and is no longer working with Ellsworth, I believe that it is for a good reason.
I posted the thread because I thought Tony's responses were way out of line for someone that needs to start handling these issues, instead of flaming on prior/potential customers concerns.
I am sory for upsetting anyone, but it needed to be done. Later.
It you go to my prior posts, either on the new board or the old, you will see that I do not take part in flaming one ride/rider or attack individuals. As a avid mt. biker, and shop employee, I always try to be helpful. I am not trying to start a "my bike is better than yours" type of thread. I am only trying to get potential owners to make an informed decision.
Personally, if you are going to offer a warranty replacement, I think the company needs to pony up for what ever is needed to get their riders back on the trail. The last time I warrantied a frame, the shock and the shock mount placement changed, so the company replaced the front triangle, the shock, and all hardware needed to get me riding again. Charging $ for replacement rockers or other bits that are needed is a flawed way to handle CS.
I personally trust Larry Mettler at Mt. High cyclery, and trust his judgement. His responses to questions over the last year I have been viewing have always been useful. If he was an Ellsworth dealer, and is no longer working with Ellsworth, I believe that it is for a good reason.
I posted the thread because I thought Tony's responses were way out of line for someone that needs to start handling these issues, instead of flaming on prior/potential customers concerns.
I am sory for upsetting anyone, but it needed to be done. Later.
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Ellsworth Warranty Topic
Damion and Steve3 are entitled to their opinions about Tony Ellsworth, the warranty, the website, etc...as are all the other folks that have posted on this topic which began on the Genaral Discussion page and has been viewed 2,300 times already.
I can't understand why they and others seem to think that the topic needs to bleed over to the Passion forum, and to the Ellsworth Forum. Ellsworth owners, or potential owners may be naive saps, but I be most of them are computer savy enough to navigate around to other Forums as they see fit, and can find and follow this topic where it started.
As I said on the Passion Forum, I wonder what the deal is with several particularly zealous authors who seem to feel compelled to spread this issue to other Forums?
I my self am a naive sap who owns an 02 Truth, an 03 Truth, and an 04 Id, They are awesome bikes that I totally enjoy riding. I only have my own experience which has been positive, and I am happy with my purchases. I also have several other mountain bikes by different manufacturers, and for their specific uses I am happy with them also. Overall, I'm just a happy old fool that loves to race and ride and I don't really care what anyone else rides, nor do I care what they think of what I ride. I just hope they are having as much fun as I am.
Damion and Steve3 are entitled to their opinions about Tony Ellsworth, the warranty, the website, etc...as are all the other folks that have posted on this topic which began on the Genaral Discussion page and has been viewed 2,300 times already.
I can't understand why they and others seem to think that the topic needs to bleed over to the Passion forum, and to the Ellsworth Forum. Ellsworth owners, or potential owners may be naive saps, but I be most of them are computer savy enough to navigate around to other Forums as they see fit, and can find and follow this topic where it started.
As I said on the Passion Forum, I wonder what the deal is with several particularly zealous authors who seem to feel compelled to spread this issue to other Forums?
I my self am a naive sap who owns an 02 Truth, an 03 Truth, and an 04 Id, They are awesome bikes that I totally enjoy riding. I only have my own experience which has been positive, and I am happy with my purchases. I also have several other mountain bikes by different manufacturers, and for their specific uses I am happy with them also. Overall, I'm just a happy old fool that loves to race and ride and I don't really care what anyone else rides, nor do I care what they think of what I ride. I just hope they are having as much fun as I am.
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I live in San Diego County CA, home of Tony E's business. When I was looking for frame, I considered the Truth. I see a lot of Truths on my rides. More than any other boutique brand. I talked to owners and most were very happy with their bikes. I had read all the stories about his business practices and frame problems. I did meet a rider on an XCE who said he did ride a Truth until he broke 2 frames and went with a Turner.steve3 said:
I've seen his ads in MTB in the early days of FS. I've followed the changes made over the years. The Truth has been tweaked over the years, and I honestly think Tony was trying to find the best pedaling FS bike with all the different changes he made. I have ridden one and it pedaled very nice with little bob. I don't believe he tried to get around the lifetime warranty by making the changes.
I do believe that the problems started occuring with the 2001 model. Tony stated the fixes for the problems on the response in the General forum. He also blamed the rider, the shock etc. The bottom line was there was a design problem that showed up on some riders. Tony didn't have a weight limit, so he couldn't get around the problem that way. He couldn't make sure everyone who bought one rode only certain types of trails and weighed 145 lbs and didn't do big jumps or drops. He went with a coil shock. Now I can't see buying a lightweight frame and adding a shock that weighs over twice the weight so the frame won't blow through its travel under certain conditions and certain riders. I also believe that some riders who purchased a Truth because it was so light, bought a bike not suited for their riding style. The rider who broke two frames, went with a frame that weighed over a lb. more.
Now Tony has "solved" the problems with the 2004 model. Well I don't think the rider should have to pay for Tony's R & D over the years by having to pay for his lifetime warranty. In this specific case there was a "design flaw" that was fixed over a period of years and some changes, made the lifetime warranty void. This is why I didn't buy a Truth. The bike was too light for me(185 lb.) if I expected it to last for more than one year over the terrain I ride. I went with a frame that weighed 1/2 lb more with an air shock. I also was turned off by the Limited Lifetime Warranty which other manufacturers honor with an updated model to replace an old outdated part or frame. Well, I wanted to buy a Truth, but just couldn't, and I could't be happier. I do talk to a lot of happy Truth owners on the trail.
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978 Posts
The way I read this thread is that some people have a problem with 'lifetime warranty', or at least the way it's being explained by TE. I'm from Holland and over here _nobody_ believes anything can be subject to a lifetime warranty, there must be a catch. And with Ellsworth that catch is that only the broken parts are covered, but if they are no longer made/in stock are replaced with current parts. These current parts may not fit your older parts/frame and an upgrade is neccesary. I think it's only fair that the warrantee pays for those while the warranter supplies replacement parts for free.
Although I also think the manufacturer should have lots of stock parts to service older products. I guess TE does not stock enough or didn't stock enough in the past (when there apparently was a problem with the Truth frame) to earn his reputation. Once you've got that reputation, it's very hard to get rid off. It may even be because of these posts that are started by people trying to warn others of TE's practice.
Anyway, I was looking into an Ellsworth frame (a Moment), but it has now dropped to the last place on my list due to these posts and the fact that it's the first year it is made. I've also read the other thread where TE responded, but that didn't give me enough confidence to buy a frame without a Dutch dealer. This is all thanks to you Steve3
(or might be if I miss out on a great frame).
Although I also think the manufacturer should have lots of stock parts to service older products. I guess TE does not stock enough or didn't stock enough in the past (when there apparently was a problem with the Truth frame) to earn his reputation. Once you've got that reputation, it's very hard to get rid off. It may even be because of these posts that are started by people trying to warn others of TE's practice.
Anyway, I was looking into an Ellsworth frame (a Moment), but it has now dropped to the last place on my list due to these posts and the fact that it's the first year it is made. I've also read the other thread where TE responded, but that didn't give me enough confidence to buy a frame without a Dutch dealer. This is all thanks to you Steve3
(or might be if I miss out on a great frame).
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7,401 Posts
This is a debate and the evidence against Ellsworth bicycles is mounting.-quote steve3
What!- take a break from your self-appointed "MTBR.com Ellsworth Trial Case" and go bash on Tomac bikes since your obviously bitter over that. Did you read Bikezilla's comment on this thread? I couldn't agree more!, your crusade is not in the spirit of this forum and I don't think we(Ells. owners) need you to educate us on the evil doings of TE. If someone has directly been screwed by TE, than he/she has a right to ***** on this forum, but why the hell do YOU need to take it so far?
What!- take a break from your self-appointed "MTBR.com Ellsworth Trial Case" and go bash on Tomac bikes since your obviously bitter over that. Did you read Bikezilla's comment on this thread? I couldn't agree more!, your crusade is not in the spirit of this forum and I don't think we(Ells. owners) need you to educate us on the evil doings of TE. If someone has directly been screwed by TE, than he/she has a right to ***** on this forum, but why the hell do YOU need to take it so far?
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7,401 Posts
The spirit of the forum is to tell a person about their objective experience with something. [/QUOTE]
Exactly! and your not doing that, your bashing a brand you have no experience with-only second hand. It's not your position to lead this argument and thats the only point I'm making here.
Exactly! and your not doing that, your bashing a brand you have no experience with-only second hand. It's not your position to lead this argument and thats the only point I'm making here.
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314 Posts
Some review might be in order
You are the one that chose to propogate your thread in the Passion, General, and Ellsworth (and probably Turner) forums. Are you calling for reinforcements ? After all you have positioned yourself as judge, jury and executioner with regard to Ellsworth customer service problems despite no direct experience. You are hijacking a forum that is out of your realm of possible interest. Perhaps you can take a time-out and look in the mirror and ask - why ? Maybe it will open your mind ? Maybe it won't. Sad.
That is a factually incorrect statement. Reference An attack by Pete (who'll claim he was joking). This is not an unprecented attack either. I have personally been attacked in these forums.steve3 said:
You are the one that chose to propogate your thread in the Passion, General, and Ellsworth (and probably Turner) forums. Are you calling for reinforcements ? After all you have positioned yourself as judge, jury and executioner with regard to Ellsworth customer service problems despite no direct experience. You are hijacking a forum that is out of your realm of possible interest. Perhaps you can take a time-out and look in the mirror and ask - why ? Maybe it will open your mind ? Maybe it won't. Sad.
Holy mackeral you're even more daft than I imagined!TruckeeLocal said:
That was indeed the farthest thing from an attack. It was a joke and if you had bothered to scroll down you would have seen that I helped him out and answered his question. Some "attack," eh?
Given your past history of posting blatant lies, I guess I shouldn't be too surprised though. If you want to whiine about being "attacked" for posting lies, perhaps you shouldn't lie in the first place. Food for thought.
Your lies, in case you've forgotten:
Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt1 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by TruckeeLocal
Apparently Pete.'s upgrade wasn't so cheap. First he had to appologize to Ellsworth's customer service folks :-O Even though Ellsworth already knew his frame was defective and wanted it back under a recall :-( . </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->
Are you high or what?
That's a crock of bullshit. A huge one in fact.
<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->
Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt1 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by TruckeeLocal
I guess Pete didn't want to give it back to get it fixed before he broke it.. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->
Another lie. That's 2 for 2.
<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->
Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt1 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by TruckeeLocal
Bummer your frame is working so well. Maybe that's just how it's supposed to be. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
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You must be drunk or stoned.
I have no idea how well that frame is working.<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->
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314 Posts
Am I daft ?
My understanding is that you purchased one of the early Truths with a defective rocker that Ellsworth tried to, but failed in certain instances, recall. Your Truth, with the defective rocker, broke. You were understandably upset. Now you have a broken Id ? Why on earth would you get a second one after your negative experiences ?
I may well be daft, as evidenced by me responding to your posts from time to time. That's your call what you think of my intelligence based on extremely limited information. But I still don't have the Ellsworth tattoo.
Incidentally I assumed that you meant the "Ellsworth Owner" thing as a joke. Just like your tattoo comment. Again perhaps you might want to review what stands as humour in a forum such as this. Things can easily get misunderstood.
My understanding is that you purchased one of the early Truths with a defective rocker that Ellsworth tried to, but failed in certain instances, recall. Your Truth, with the defective rocker, broke. You were understandably upset. Now you have a broken Id ? Why on earth would you get a second one after your negative experiences ?
I may well be daft, as evidenced by me responding to your posts from time to time. That's your call what you think of my intelligence based on extremely limited information. But I still don't have the Ellsworth tattoo.
Incidentally I assumed that you meant the "Ellsworth Owner" thing as a joke. Just like your tattoo comment. Again perhaps you might want to review what stands as humour in a forum such as this. Things can easily get misunderstood.
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