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Dr Gadget is IN
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I need it for mad science. Needs to have good beads, and at least 1/2 the sidewall intact.

Trying to make a 360 beadlock for fat tires, like neutech tubliss m/c system:
 

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Dr Gadget is IN
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I need an Endo/Larry/Spyder - and yes I'm trying to make an inflatable bead-lock so I can run lo-pres tubeless.

I will be cutting windows out of the worn tire so I can see what happens inside at the bead.

TuBliss is basically a tire-within-a-tire, and that is one option - I'm looking for a light 26x2 to see if it would stretch across the rim, but rim width WILL matter for that approach. I've got a LargeMarge and a ChoppersUS 100 to try it on.
 

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:thumbsup:
wadester said:
I need it for mad science. Needs to have good beads, and at least 1/2 the sidewall intact.

Trying to make a 360 beadlock for fat tires, like neutech tubliss m/c system:
The Nutech system is sweet, My bro rode motorbike with a guy who has this system, and he really highly praises this system.. Very nice.. BTW, I do have two Endo's , that have good beads, but the sidewalls are super fuzzy.
 

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Dr Gadget is IN
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
1stiski said:
:thumbsup:

The Nutech system is sweet, My bro rode motorbike with a guy who has this system, and he really highly praises this system.. Very nice.. BTW, I do have two Endo's , that have good beads, but the sidewalls are super fuzzy.
As long as the sidewalls aren't ripped or torn it'll work. PM on the way.
 

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That Unicycle Guy
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If you are cutting windows into the sidewall why do you need a full tire?

Seems to me that you could use any old tire you wanted split down the center. Stick half the tire on either side of your bead lock and inflate your inner tire or whatever you want to call it. Perfect view of what is happening in the wheel and you can get a good grip on either sidewall to try to torque and pull them by hand.



I am curious as to how you are planning on inflating the outer tire, a sharpened ball inflation needle through the casing?
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
ericpulvermacher said:
If you are cutting windows into the sidewall why do you need a full tire?

Seems to me that you could use any old tire you wanted split down the center. Stick half the tire on either side of your bead lock and inflate your inner tire or whatever you want to call it. Perfect view of what is happening in the wheel and you can get a good grip on either sidewall to try to torque and pull them by hand.

I am curious as to how you are planning on inflating the outer tire, a sharpened ball inflation needle through the casing?
I want a "full" tire so I can check fit within the tire - this primarily for my second string mad scheme, but a good check on any. Remember - this lashup has to function hands off to be of any good in the "real" world.

Tire inflation is, indeed, the next step of the problem. Neutech addresses this with an aluminum block that has a path past the "lock" system - I'm thinking in terms of a bit of tubing to serve the same purpose. Stabbing your tire to inflate it (what Neutech's "competition" does) seems like a silly idea. Maybe if you had a port like a sports ball, but I'd still prefer a tire valve. So what ya'll think? Presta for one and Schraeder for the other so you can tell which is which???
 

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wade, I reckon you're onto a good thing,

I have all the goodies endo with a hole burned in it from an exhaust, 1.5 inch slick, 2.0 folding if the 1.5 is too small. and finaly a sewing machine that can handle tacking webbing for a lighter setup/ custom size outer band. but I'm in Australia so I'll just have to use it for my own experiments :)

the inflation as you said will be the hard part. there is a company here called Staun who make 4x4 inflatable beadlocks for the rock crawling crowd I'll see what they do.

good luck on your side of the world and i'll keep everyone posted on how my trials go. with pics if i remember.

Cheers

Matt
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
twinnie said:
wade, I reckon you're onto a good thing,

I have all the goodies endo with a hole burned in it from an exhaust, 1.5 inch slick, 2.0 folding if the 1.5 is too small. and finaly a sewing machine that can handle tacking webbing for a lighter setup/ custom size outer band. but I'm in Australia so I'll just have to use it for my own experiments :)

the inflation as you said will be the hard part. there is a company here called Staun who make 4x4 inflatable beadlocks for the rock crawling crowd I'll see what they do.

good luck on your side of the world and i'll keep everyone posted on how my trials go. with pics if i remember.

Cheers

Matt
Hello Matt, and I look forward to your results! It sounds like you're on the same track that I've got planned - and the possible of a commercial mfg is very cool. I looked them up:

http://www.staunproducts.com/beadlock.php

I especially like their "air channel" for independent tire pressure! That part may work for our tires - and they even have dealers in my state, if I don't mind driving 3 hours.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
After spending the time downloading some vids from
http://www.staunproducts.com/beadlock.php

It looks like their system is a fabric "tire" - sidewalls and tread of either canvas or vinyl with a nylon web strap "tread" to keep the tube going sideways. It doesn't even appear to have a bead, unlike the TuBliss system, but doesn't seem to need it either. This would be MUCH lighter than using a tire.

I think that there may be a little sizing to do to fit properly, but no biggie.

The tire valve still looks like the hard part - but the Staun "air sleeve" may be the fix there. The issue is that a ghetto tubeless seal goes outside the bead, but the "air sleeve" would go inside between the beadlock and the tire bead. Perhaps the beadlock will eliminate the need for the ghetto bead seal.
 

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is buachail foighneach me
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Wade, for a tire valve:

Cut the main tube you're using to inflate the 'inner tire', then seal the ends however is feasible. Then install an extra long valve into the tread of the 'inner tire', to exit down through the rim. Maybe??

Rudimentary MS Paint sketch of idea:
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
It's good to have friends at the LBS. I walked in with my 100 at a slow time and got lots of help. Our first try was a 2.0 road slick, but at 30 psi it was 1/2" short of the rim edge on both sides. Then the manager (Pablo) remembered some Schwalbe Fat Frank cruiser tires - 26x2.35's. So with just a naked rim, a tube and a tire we put it together and aired it up with a floor pump. At 20 psi one side was fully seated and the other was close and slowly creeping up. WIN! It did take a 1/2 hr to finish seating, tho. Since I will be running a Larry, Pablo dubbed the whole system Frankenlarry and drew a side view of a fat wheel/tire as Frankenstien with the axle ends as neck bolts. Cool.

I came home, pulled the Endo off the muni and tried a few things. Fat Frank on Large Marge= usable by itself. Probably that 2.0 road slick would work fine for the 80/70/65 rims, and possibly a 1.5 for a 50.

I put the endo on the other 100 and compared Endo to Frank, and it seemed a little close - 91" circumference vs 84", or 29"dia vs 27". Then I put it all together - tube/Frank/Endo. I pumped up the inner to 20psi, and when I checked the Endo beads they were both seated. Very easy - just assemble and air up and done. I did use a little of the soap/water spray I use for regular tubeless assembly.

The Endo just has the few psi that it captured, so its got some pressure in it. There is at least an inch of deflection before you get to the inner tire, but I don't know if that will be enough. The sewn fabric inner tire will be easier to customize the inner height to work with this.

Pics: Frank on 100, Frank and Endo on 100's, FrankEndo deflection to inner contact
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Second Tire valve

sean salach said:
Wade, for a tire valve:

Cut the main tube you're using to inflate the 'inner tire', then seal the ends however is feasible. Then install an extra long valve into the tread of the 'inner tire', to exit down through the rim. Maybe??

Rudimentary MS Paint sketch of idea:
This is the simplest concept, but may be the hardest to do. I worry about sealing the innertube where the second valve stem passes thru it, assuming that there will be some movement - at least from pressure changes caused by rolling over rough surface. Also, as you assemble/inflate the system the stem and innertube would need to slide or flex.

The concept I'm working with is to go around the inner tube, but pierce the inner tire. I'm looking for some small diameter hard plastic tubing with fitting to do this. It would need to turn 90degrees at the inside of the valve stem, at the bead and then maybe again to get thru the inner tire. It needs to be flexible enough to follow the curve of the inner tire, and to have curves from fitting to fitting to allow for change as you inflate.

Also - I think we will need to have one Schraeder/one Presta to tell things apart - and I'm leaning to Schraeder for the "high" pressure since it will be messed with least, but parts may force the low pressure valve to be Schraeder.

And - Where do we clock the second valve on the rim? Next open spot in the spoke pattern? 1/4 way around the rim? Right thru the rim seam?

And a pic of the Staun system: You can see their second valve setup hanging right there in front - it goes around the outside of the fabric inner tire, but I can't see any detail of it and don't see it for sale as a separate part.
 

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That Unicycle Guy
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What if you take a strap, sew it into a loop and put it around the inner tire preventing it from expanding upwards but letting it go outwards? it would allow more deflection in the outer tire before contact and might let you use a skinnier tire for the beadlock.

For inflating the outer tire I am thinking a flexible tube that resists crushing could probably be made to fit between the beads. Hydraulic brake hose might work if you can figure out a fitting to connect it to a stem.

EDIT: mmmm on second thought you would get air leakage around the tube, maybe if you had a rubber sleeve around it to help it seal against either bead. Sort of a double pointed oval shape.
 

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wadester said:
This is the simplest concept, but may be the hardest to do. I worry about sealing the innertube where the second valve stem passes thru it, assuming that there will be some movement - at least from pressure changes caused by rolling over rough surface. Also, as you assemble/inflate the system the stem and innertube would need to slide or flex.
Sealing the two ends of the tube would be the biggest issue. I'm not sure how you would effectively do that. The tire valve could sit in a block of closed cell foam between the tire and rim to prevent any tube damage from friction and still allow any necessary movement.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
ericpulvermacher said:
What if you take a strap, sew it into a loop and put it around the inner tire preventing it from expanding upwards but letting it go outwards? it would allow more deflection in the outer tire before contact and might let you use a skinnier tire for the beadlock.
Yes - and that is what Staun does. The orange "tread" in the picture is actually nylon web strap.

ericpulvermacher said:
For inflating the outer tire I am thinking a flexible tube that resists crushing could probably be made to fit between the beads. Hydraulic brake hose might work if you can figure out a fitting to connect it to a stem.
Hydro brake hose is an good idea! A banjo fitting at the valve would be nice. One prob may be the size of the passage in the fittings.

ericpulvermacher said:
EDIT: mmmm on second thought you would get air leakage around the tube, maybe if you had a rubber sleeve around it to help it seal against either bead. Sort of a double pointed oval shape.
No, you've got the right idea. You have to see that the inner bead doesn't actually hold pressure - the tube does that. Look at the "beads" in the Staun pic - they're just fabric edging. The second valve just folds right under them. With an actual tire inside, the inner bead seems much stronger than needed. I think they would crush almost anything you tried to run under them.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
sean salach said:
Sealing the two ends of the tube would be the biggest issue. I'm not sure how you would effectively do that. The tire valve could sit in a block of closed cell foam between the tire and rim to prevent any tube damage from friction and still allow any necessary movement.
Ya know, I have this vague memory of an inner tube that wasn't a donut - but a "C" shape. That would work for this, if it exists - and anyone knows what that is called.
 

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...I never thought I'd say this, but...I think you guys have smoked WAY too much...
 

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damnitman said:
...I never thought I'd say this, but...I think you guys have smoked WAY too much...
thats not helpful

but it's good to see the pics from experiments, i'll be doing my own in the next few days with an marge/endo combo and i'll keep you posted

Cheers

Matt
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
damnitman said:
...I never thought I'd say this, but...I think you guys have smoked WAY too much...
Or not enough! Besides, this sounds like jealousy to me. We're so sorry we made you read this thread. Not.
 
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