[kwarwick]

I originally posted a similar question in the Ibis forum but figured this is a more appropriate place:

I bought an Easton Haven wheelset last year and I've put less than 400kms on it. From pretty early on I noticed that the rear wheel would develop a slight amount of side to side play that required snugging down of the pre-load adjuster, but was always very careful to snug it down just enough to remove the play without causing any binding of the bearings. As the season progressed I noticed I had to do this almost every other ride and towards the end I could no longer remove the play. It was never very clear if the bearings were developing play, or the pre-load adjuster was perhaps loosening up. Anyway at that point I realized that the bearings had become a bit rough and after further inspection I found that the drive side 6902 bearing was the main culprit, but after replacing it there was still some play and roughness so I popped in a new non-drive side 6901 bearing also. (As an aside Easton sent me replacement adjuster which I installed at the same time and this one seems significantly tighter fitting).

So this all got me thinking about the design of a hub that depends on placing pre-load on a type of bearing that, as I understand it, really isn't meant to have significant side loading. Would replacing the current bearings with angular contact bearings be something to consider if the replacement bearings start to develop the same problem again? From what I understand angular contact bearings make a certain degree of sense in a wheel hub, as long as it is designed to take them and it seems the Haven hub design with the pre-load adjuster is exactly what is needed for angular contact bearings to work properly. The only thing is I've never used that type of bearing before so I don't know if there are downsides like maybe too much rolling resistance or the like?

79xx series are the the angular contact version of 69xx series bearings and I see I can get 7901 and 7902 Enduro bearings pretty easily. Anyone with experience doing something like this or any general thoughts on angular contact bearings would be appreciated.

 

[PissedOffCil]

I did use Enduro MAX bearings in my trials wheelset. I can't really comment on much though (you don't feel/car about the drag and the bearing generally last forever when riding trials). I had the same reasoning as you, it made sense for an application where there is a lot of load on the bearings.

 

[PissedOffCil]

I was also wondering yesterday why we don't use more taper roller bearings... I bought the Token TRB bottom bracket yesterday to give it a try. It seems to make sense in wheels too.

 

[kwarwick]

I did use Enduro MAX bearings in my trials wheelset. I can't really comment on much though (you don't feel/car about the drag and the bearing generally last forever when riding trials). I had the same reasoning as you, it made sense for an application where there is a lot of load on the bearings.

Did you use angular contact Enduro MAX bearings and if so do you recall which # bearing?

 

[PissedOffCil]

Did you use angular contact Enduro MAX bearings and if so do you recall which # bearing?

Yes I did for my rear Trials wheel. The front is a cartridge so it can't be overhauled. I don't remember the size, sorry.

 

[Dougal]

A bigger question is where is the play coming from in the stock setup?

Normally with cartridge bearings the outer is a press-fit and the inner is a slip-fit which is too close to feel any play in. Does this hub rely on side-preload to mask play between the axle and bearing?

 

[kwarwick]

A bigger question is where is the play coming from in the stock setup?

Normally with cartridge bearings the outer is a press-fit and the inner is a slip-fit which is too close to feel any play in. Does this hub rely on side-preload to mask play between the axle and bearing?

The Haven rear hub is a bit different in the respect that both drive and non-drive side bearings are press fit into the hub shell. The axle is then inserted from the freehub side and has a machined shoulder that provides a stop against the inner race of the drive side bearing and the other end is allowed to float through the non-drive side bearing. There is an adjuster on the non-drive side that tightens the axle down against the non-drive side bearing's inner race and in this way takes the play out of both bearings.

In theory this is a rather elegant solution, but in reality (at least in this hub) the design seems to be a bearing killer. I'm not sure if this is a result of the type of bearing being used or perhaps that the bearings are a under-sized for the application.

 

[Dougal]

The Haven rear hub is a bit different in the respect that both drive and non-drive side bearings are press fit into the hub shell. The axle is then inserted from the freehub side and has a machined shoulder that provides a stop against the inner race of the drive side bearing and the other end is allowed to float through the non-drive side bearing. There is an adjuster on the non-drive side that tightens the axle down against the non-drive side bearing's inner race and in this way takes the play out of both bearings.

In theory this is a rather elegant solution, but in reality (at least in this hub) the design seems to be a bearing killer. I'm not sure if this is a result of the type of bearing being used or perhaps that the bearings are a under-sized for the application.

Thanks for the description. So with the adjuster nut backed off so it's close but not touching, is play evident between the axle and bearing inner?

 

[kwarwick]

Thanks for the description. So with the adjuster nut backed off so it's close but not touching, is play evident between the axle and bearing inner?

Yes, off the bike it is quite a small amount but can be felt as radial play mostly on the non-drive side end of the axle. With the wheel mounted on the bike it is significantly more obvious at the rim with the wheel knocking side to side. Once the adjuster is snugged down the play disappears completely.

But to answer you question, is this play between the axle and the bearing inner... its very difficult to tell. It could be since the axle obviously has some clearance to be able to slip through the bearing and I'm sure tolerances being what the are this cannot be an exact match. But I suspect it is more the clearances inside the bearing between the balls and the races that I'm feeling. I think by pushing the inner race over this forces the balls to climb up the sides of the trough they sit in and removes this play.

 

[Dougal]

Yes, off the bike it is quite a small amount but can be felt as radial play mostly on the non-drive side end of the axle. With the wheel mounted on the bike it is significantly more obvious at the rim with the wheel knocking side to side. Once the adjuster is snugged down the play disappears completely.

But to answer you question, is this play between the axle and the bearing inner... its very difficult to tell. It could be since the axle obviously has some clearance to be able to slip through the bearing and I'm sure tolerances being what the are this cannot be an exact match. But I suspect it is more the clearances inside the bearing between the balls and the races that I'm feeling. I think by pushing the inner race over this forces the balls to climb up the sides of the trough they sit in and removes this play.

It sounds like the real solution would be a sleeve between the two bearings so the inner races, axle and sleeve can all be tightened against each other to remove play without side-loading the bearings themselves.
But I have no idea if there is enough space inside the hub to do this.

 

[kwarwick]

It sounds like the real solution would be a sleeve between the two bearings so the inner races, axle and sleeve can all be tightened against each other to remove play without side-loading the bearings themselves.
But I have no idea if there is enough space inside the hub to do this.

If the bearings have internal play, would this help? Sounds like what you're suggesting would help in the case of there being play between the axle and the ID of the bearing inner races, right?

If this helps at all the diagram below is from Easton's R4 road wheels, which share a very similar design with the Haven... although the shape of the adjuster (1) is different, it presses against the bearing inner race in exactly the same fashion.

 

[pimpbot]

but....

I did use Enduro MAX bearings in my trials wheelset. I can't really comment on much though (you don't feel/car about the drag and the bearing generally last forever when riding trials). I had the same reasoning as you, it made sense for an application where there is a lot of load on the bearings.

... wouldn't full compliment bearings like Enduro Max bearings wear funny? I mean, the balls are all bumping up against each other, rubbing each other causing a flat spot band wear pattern, which is why most bearings have a separator cage. I can see full compliment bearings for things that don't move fast, or very far and have to take huge loads... like suspension pivot bearings.

 

[Dougal]

If the bearings have internal play, would this help? Sounds like what you're suggesting would help in the case of there being play between the axle and the ID of the bearing inner races, right?

If this helps at all the diagram below is from Easton's R4 road wheels, which share a very similar design with the Haven... although the shape of the adjuster (1) is different, it presses against the bearing inner race in exactly the same fashion.

Yes all bearings have internal play, but it's usually soo small you'll never feel it. Looks like you'd need a special conical spacer to span between bearings. Not so easy to add aftermarket.

... wouldn't full compliment bearings like Enduro Max bearings wear funny? I mean, the balls are all bumping up against each other, rubbing each other causing a flat spot band wear pattern, which is why most bearings have a separator cage. I can see full compliment bearings for things that don't move fast, or very far and have to take huge loads... like suspension pivot bearings.

Generally yes. Raceface's full complement BB bearings suffer an early death for this reason. I understand from RF's marketing literature that they've changed to "retainer" bearings to solve the problem.
How shimano's cup and cone hub bearings (which are also full complement by definition) don't suffer is a mystery I haven't yet solved.

 

[PissedOffCil]

... wouldn't full compliment bearings like Enduro Max bearings wear funny? I mean, the balls are all bumping up against each other, rubbing each other causing a flat spot band wear pattern, which is why most bearings have a separator cage. I can see full compliment bearings for things that don't move fast, or very far and have to take huge loads... like suspension pivot bearings.

Ever seen a trials bike ride fast?
We're barely moving when doing trials and the wheels take all the impacts from the drops and stuff, seems like the application fits the bill.

 

[Dougal]

Ever seen a trials bike ride fast?
We're barely moving when doing trials and the wheels take all the impacts from the drops and stuff, seems like the application fits the bill.

Some BMX BB's are the same. They don't do enough miles to wear out bearings, but they have plenty of impact to hammer them into an early grave. For these full complement bearings can mean a longer life.

It's like the whole stainless vs chromium steel for bearings. Stainless is softer and wears faster, but if corrosion is your main problem then stainless can outlast many chromium steel bearings. Special solutions for special applications.

 

[SMT42]

I Spoke with Easton Last week about these wheels, I ended up buying a set for 475 out the door. At any rate if these are the 09 version of the wheel they have upgraded the axel in the 10 and older models. I asked them about this problem you are having as I did not want to experience the same and thats when they told me that they had upgraded. I can't remember exactly but they went from red to blue or blue to red. at any rate give them a call and see if they can help. Just tell the operator that you long for the days of old customer service and she should connect you. Worked for me. sorry about spelling.

 

[PissedOffCil]

Red/orange are angular, blue are regular

 

[kwarwick]

I have been back and forth with Easton and my contact denies there being any common problems like I was having with the Haven rear hub. Seems Easton made some changes to the current 2011 Haven rear hub, but I suspect that was more to allow for the 12mm thru axle option which the previous design would not be able to support due to the bearing sizes they were using.

I guess I'll see how my replacement bearings hold up and if they fail again, try a set of angular contact bearings.

 

[F-Bomb]

I know this thread is a bit old, but how did the angular bearings go?

I have had the lateral play issue with my Easton Haven rear wheel and the bearings are now dead. I am investigating replacing them and putting Loctite Threadlocker Blue to prevent the preload adjuster to come loose.

So, shall I use some Enduro Max 7901 and 7902 (angular) bearings? Or some other bearings? And would the front wheel benefit from angular bearings as well?

Thanks :thumbsup:

 

[kwarwick]

I know this thread is a bit old, but how did the angular bearings go?

I have had the lateral play issue with my Easton Haven rear wheel and the bearings are now dead. I am investigating replacing them and putting Loctite Threadlocker Blue to prevent the preload adjuster to come loose.

So, shall I use some Enduro Max 7901 and 7902 (angular) bearings? Or some other bearings? And would the front wheel benefit from angular bearings as well?

Thanks :thumbsup:

Well fortunately for me, my bearings are holding out after replacing the bearings and axle together with loctite on the adjuster.

Have you tried getting a replacement axle as that seemed to be the key to solving the problem for me. If not, I'd highly recommend taking to Easton as they seem very willing to work with customers that were having this problem.