[jugdish]

So after trolling through and also reading some posts I get where you AM dudes and dudettes are coming from sort of, not sure I agree but that's another post. What I can't get over is all the "what's the best _____ for AM riding". If AM riding truly is a type of rider somewhere between XC/FR and DH I'd assume that there would be alot of gear that could cross over. An example would be helmets, do you really need a AM specific helmet? saddle? shorts? I think this is where the "what's the best AM dog? water?" threads come from. I understand some gear is AM specific but can't help look at some of these posts and think about the old saying, "a fool and his money are soon parted". Much of it seems to be marketing hype, at least the examples above. Just my 2 cents, not trying to troll, just thinking. I'm out.

 

[Guyechka]

I have one question.

What is the best all mountain do-rag?

I've been hunting for a Dew-rag, but I can't find one.

 

[jugdish]

I think do-rags are worn by XC guys (hell maybe DH guys- I'm so out of touch!) and Dew-rags are the choice of the AM rider. But whatever you do, under no circumstance should you be seen riding an AM bike with a mere do-rag!

 

[TNC]

Jug, despite the fact that I do think you're trolling, I'll try to enlighten you. I think you're making too much out of the AM label. The fact that there is a label is just something that makes it easier to refer to...instead of one of those bikes that is relatively light, but has a good deal of travel, is quite strong, will take a good deal of abuse, and can be ridden uphill. I mean, if you know your MTB history, you'll recall that there were basically two types of MTB'ing and the bikes to do them...light XC type bikes and DH bikes. And while people would take their XC bikes and put DH stuff on them, and some others would take their DH bikes and put XC stuff on them, all in an effort to achieve the bike that could do more of everything, obviously it wasn't the perfect solution. The AM issue is just based upon getting that bike and yes, even the gear, that accomplishes that best-of-both-worlds compromise that many are looking for. It's not rocket science, and it didn't happen overnight, but the last two years or so have really identified this pursuit as a "real" segment of bike and equipment demand. I've noticed a pattern here on the forums as it pertains to most of the nay-sayers on this AM issue. They seem to fit 3 categories.

The first group consists of true XC/lightweight minimalist types who feel you try to accomplish the task with the least amount of weight, machinery, and complexity.

The second group is mainly the more extreme DH/FR crowd who feel no compromise should be made that infringes on strength, durability, and long travel.

The last category mainly consists of people who are clueless about the technical aspects of bikes, equipment, and their useage to the extent that they are actually fearful of technology and the new capabilities that it brings. These folks usually avoid such new products and continue in their "comfort zone" of equipment and riding preferences.

And you know what? All three of these categories are just fine. People have the right to remain within or move out of any category or style of riding and equipment that they desire. The irritating thing is when some of these folks rail on others for having the audacity to suggest that there may be something else...something better...available. History has shown us frequently, however, that this is not an unusual behavior.

And Jug, your comment on the helmet issue may be the most obvious example of equipment not filling the gaps in MTB gear. There really is a desire on the part of many riders who want that compromise helmet that allows a rider to do aggressive trail/AM riding with much more protection but without the heat and heft of a DH helmet.

 

[Guyechka]

Aggressive XC < AM > Freeride Lite

All this labeling is starting to wear on me as well. I don't have a problem with the term, so long as everyone agrees to stick with it and has a rough idea of the concept behind it.

As a marketing ploy, it has some definite advantages, and you may be right that some manufacturers are just scheming away. Still, to call it the Race Face Atlas Trail Riding crankset just doesn't quite sound as definitive as All Mountain. That's me, and that's the one example I can think of where the term is applicable.

 

[KONA_in_SB]

I think asking for AM specific parts and equipment is perfectly acceptible and makes sense. I am a clyde and I ride aggresively but like most people I don't want to haul around unwanted weight on my bike. I avoid stuff labeled XC but don't always want or need DH/FR burlyness. And that is where AM comes in. Too me this seems like a completely obvious and necessary niche but some people have a real problem with it.

And yes a good AM helemt would be nice. A light weight, breathable full face (that doesn't need to be up to DH standards) is what I want. They just aren't made yet. But I am sure someone will come out with one soon. I just want to keep my teeth when I try a drop or jump 15 miles into a ride.

 

[ferday]

A light weight, breathable full face (that doesn't need to be up to DH standards) is what I want. They just aren't made yet

yes they are. http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=2407

this concept that all DH/FR parts are huge and heavy, and XC parts are all lightweight and fragile for racing only is a total bunch of BS. the complaints come because people want ALL of the big three: price, weight, and strength. problem is you only get 2.

 

[Steve71]

Too bad you can't get the MET Parachute in the USA. And I'm not importing something I can't try on....

 

[ferday]

and here's why...and also why some of these "AM" products you guys want will never happen



"...MET have to ensure that their products pass the different safety standards that apply in the countries in which they are sold. MET helmets do not meet just one of these standards but all of them, whether it is Europe, Japan, or Australia, for instance. Nevertheless, we have noted that some court decisions about product liability in some countries, especially USA and Canada penalize manufacturers for damages that may be suffered by a consumer involved in an accident. This, sometimes, occurs regardless of the quality of the product, and the safety it actually provides. Moreover, judicial costs and attorney's fees are very burdensome in North America..."

 

[jugdish]

Ehh, if I was trolling I wouldn't use the happy faces.:thumbsup: I don't think I'm nessecarily a naysayer but will grant you that I'm skeptical. I know this sh!t has been hashed out before but let's just say I'm bored and wanted an interesting discussion. I can appreciate the heavier rider or clydesdale needing more burly gear, can't argue that.

I agree with Ferday who said, "this concept that all DH/FR parts are huge and heavy, and XC parts are all lightweight and fragile for racing only is a total bunch of BS. the complaints come because people want ALL of the big three: price, weight, and strength. problem is you only get 2." AM gear just seems like another ploy to get your cash, I get the attitude of riding up and enjoying the decent but isn't that what has been happening since the beginning of mountain biking?


T- I get this, "And while people would take their XC bikes and put DH stuff on them, and some others would take their DH bikes and put XC stuff on them, all in an effort to achieve the bike that could do more of everything, obviously it wasn't the perfect solution. The AM issue is just based upon getting that bike and yes, even the gear, that accomplishes that best-of-both-worlds compromise that many are looking for." but this is also where I begin to laugh. There are soo many posts on here about what someone should use (ie. buy new) to ride AM. Instead of trying to figure out what new piece of AM bling to install I think you should just head out and ride. I'll add this and don't mean it to sound inflamitory, I don't think that the majority of riders out there ride hard enough to warrant it. I know there are some great riders who post here but I can't shake the feeling that there are alot of "DEW riders" out there who are more into the bling than the ride. Who the hell am I to say anything and in the end I really don't care, just my subjective thoughts.


Your catagories are interesting and I probably fall into the first and third groups yet still feel that I've been AM riding since I've owned an adult MTB/ATB.


So a specific AM helmet is needed? Full face but light? Personally, I couldn't imagine going out and doing an all day ride in any FF helmet, but again that's me.

And hey, it's your cash in the end, not mine. Hope that wasn't sounding like a troll, just wunderin'.

 

[Guyechka]

I know there are some great riders who post here but I can't shake the feeling that there are alot of "DEW riders" out there who are more into the bling than the ride.

Hey! I represent that!

I'm not so sure I agree completely with you on the "It's just biking!" line. Fifteen years ago it was just biking, and there wasn't that much difference between the components. Some bits broke, and you didn't buy those bits any more. Simple. Or you built your own stuff (the only wheel I ever built was with twisted spokes so that I wouldn't get so much lateral flex on my Manitou 2s; whatever anyone says about twisted spokes, I know that my wheel did help out with that flex). But FR/DH evolved and XC racing evolved. Trail riding borrowed from both. I do think there are trail bikes that approach riding from both ends of the spectrum. Now whether or not there is some magical AM spot right in the middle, I don't really know. I do think it can be useful to use the term AM so that a consumer knows what to expect. But--and I want to make this clear--I do agree with you that it can and has been taken to an extreme lately.

 

[davec113]

So a specific AM helmet is needed? Full face but light? Personally, I couldn't imagine going out and doing an all day ride in any FF helmet, but again that's me.

Who cares if someone decides they feel safer in a ff? Some people wear armor for light xc riding... shocking!!!

There are soo many posts on here about what someone should use (ie. buy new) to ride AM. Instead of trying to figure out what new piece of AM bling to install I think you should just head out and ride.

Some people are gearheads, some people just like the bling, some know very little about the bike they are riding... I've met riders who don't know how to adjust their own shocks, and some are capable of rebuilding shocks and building wheels. Its ok someone thinks different than you.

 

[KONA_in_SB]

yes they are. http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=2407

this concept that all DH/FR parts are huge and heavy, and XC parts are all lightweight and fragile for racing only is a total bunch of BS. the complaints come because people want ALL of the big three: price, weight, and strength. problem is you only get 2.

You are absolutely correct hear. But it is possible to have more than just 2 (cheap, light and strong). Why would someone want to pay big bucks for a lightweight, burly DH wheelset that they wouldn't use to their full potential when they could get one just as light but a little less strong but would suit there riding needs just fine. You don't always need the stongest DH part on the market. I don't care if you want to call the "medium" strength product "all mountain" or not but it is nice to have options other that XC or DH don't you think? And its nice when a manufacturer explicitly tells you what the intended purpose of the product is. Look at the Marizocchi classifications for thier forks.

And yes I want all three (cheap, strong, and light) if I can have it. If not then I'd rather sacrifice a little in two or three of the categories then just buy the expensive, light and strong stuff. But that's just me, if someone wants to pay top dollar for light weight DH racing parts when they don't need them go ahead.

 

[Guyechka]

Are you willing to pay the price for these? Just under a grand, these things are even better looking in person.:thumbsup:

 

[ronny]

You are absolutely correct hear. But it is possible to have more than just 2 (cheap, light and strong). Why would someone want to pay big bucks for a lightweight, burly DH wheelset that they wouldn't use to their full potential when they could get one just as light but a little less strong but would suit there riding needs just fine. You don't always need the stongest DH part on the market. I don't care if you want to call the "medium" strength product "all mountain" or not but it is nice to have options other that XC or DH don't you think? And its nice when a manufacturer explicitly tells you what the intended purpose of the product is. Look at the Marizocchi classifications for thier forks.

And yes I want all three (cheap, strong, and light) if I can have it. If not then I'd rather sacrifice a little in two or three of the categories then just buy the expensive, light and strong stuff. But that's just me, if someone wants to pay top dollar for light weight DH racing parts when they don't need them go ahead.

Yep, you can have all three. Lots of examples of parts that are not that expensive, but are fairly light compared to the freeride/dh alternative. Especially in the States, where there is so many on line shops offering stupid cheap parts.

Hone and LX cranks: Light, stiff, strong and CHEAP.
Race Face Atlas Cranks: Around the same weight as Hone/LX. Coming down in price.
XT cranks: Light and strong enough with cheap e-deals everywhere.
Blow out deals on Juicy 7 brakes.
Thomson stems and seat posts are the best for strength and weight, with good deals all over the place.
Numerous wheelsets that are not xc light or dh heavy for cheap. ie Dual Duty, Single tracks, Mavic XM 321 etc.

 

[jugdish]

shocking!!!

Its ok someone thinks different than you.

Dave- I'm not trolling here just having a discussion. If you feel threatened by this discussion I apologize. I understand that people do things differently and really Dave, it's ok by me. Hey buddy, here's a thumbs up for diversity! :thumbsup:

 

[ferday]

You don't always need the stongest DH part on the market. I don't care if you want to call the "medium" strength product "all mountain" or not but it is nice to have options other that XC or DH don't you think?

i don't mean any offense at all, but i still don't understand why you think there is an issue.

ALMOST ALL THE PARTS YOU CAN GET ARE ALL MOUNTAIN PARTS ALREADY.

the XC racer parts and ultra heavy FR/DH parts are actually harder to find, and more $$$. almost all of the middle ground middle priced stuff is relatively cheap, relatively strong, and relatively light. as ronny mentioned, XT cranks for example. a lot easier and cheaper to find than say carbon XC cranks or 3-piece cro-mo FR cranks.

i really just don't believe we need a new product niche.

 

[Hardtails Are Better]

Are you willing to pay the price for these? Just under a grand, these things are even better looking in person.:thumbsup:

I'd hope they're better looing in person, because IMO they're really freakin' ugly. Yuk.

All this labeling is getting really old, really fast. I don't give a hoot what you call the way I ride. All that matters is I enjoy doing it. And there is absolutly no reason to buy a whole bunch of new gear because you percieved that you switched from one riding group to another. For one thing, those definitions are subjective BS, and whatsmore it is rediculous to buy ANYTHING just so that you "fit in" with others. I mostly ride what is considered to be an XC HT, while almost all of my riding buddies ride 5-6" travel FSs. We ride the same trails, but choose to approach them completly differently from a technological standpoint. Whatever. We all like riding our bikes. That's what's important.

 

[uktrailmonster]

Ehh, if I was trolling I wouldn't use the happy faces.:thumbsup: I don't think I'm nessecarily a naysayer but will grant you that I'm skeptical. I know this sh!t has been hashed out before but let's just say I'm bored and wanted an interesting discussion. I can appreciate the heavier rider or clydesdale needing more burly gear, can't argue that.

I agree with Ferday who said, "this concept that all DH/FR parts are huge and heavy, and XC parts are all lightweight and fragile for racing only is a total bunch of BS. the complaints come because people want ALL of the big three: price, weight, and strength. problem is you only get 2." AM gear just seems like another ploy to get your cash, I get the attitude of riding up and enjoying the decent but isn't that what has been happening since the beginning of mountain biking?

T- I get this, "And while people would take their XC bikes and put DH stuff on them, and some others would take their DH bikes and put XC stuff on them, all in an effort to achieve the bike that could do more of everything, obviously it wasn't the perfect solution. The AM issue is just based upon getting that bike and yes, even the gear, that accomplishes that best-of-both-worlds compromise that many are looking for." but this is also where I begin to laugh. There are soo many posts on here about what someone should use (ie. buy new) to ride AM. Instead of trying to figure out what new piece of AM bling to install I think you should just head out and ride. I'll add this and don't mean it to sound inflamitory, I don't think that the majority of riders out there ride hard enough to warrant it. I know there are some great riders who post here but I can't shake the feeling that there are alot of "DEW riders" out there who are more into the bling than the ride. Who the hell am I to say anything and in the end I really don't care, just my subjective thoughts.

Your catagories are interesting and I probably fall into the first and third groups yet still feel that I've been AM riding since I've owned an adult MTB/ATB.

So a specific AM helmet is needed? Full face but light? Personally, I couldn't imagine going out and doing an all day ride in any FF helmet, but again that's me.

And hey, it's your cash in the end, not mine. Hope that wasn't sounding like a troll, just wunderin'.

Yeah, yeah we all go out and ride. Some of us ride singlespeeds, others ride DH monsters, some ride super lightweight XC and some ride AM bikes. I take it you live in the US? So you will have noticed that marketing techniques are used to sell pretty much everything you ever buy, so why the surprise that AM bikes are marketed too?

As far as people not riding hard enough to warrant their bikes, that just comes across as arrogant. You think everyone who buys a Ferrari or Porsche is up to driving it to it's full potential? Of course not. But they still enjoy driving them just the same.

If you really don't like the concept of AM, why hang around here? Perhaps you are curious and wonder whether you should be considering AM bikes in the future? If so fair enough. Maybe you think AM is all a load of bollox and you feel the need to tell everyone? I guess that's ok too, but it seems a bit pointless. I happen to think rigid singlespeeds are a load of crap, but I don't go over to the singlespeed forum and tell them all. That would be very ignorant. From your posts it just seems like you're pissed that average ability riders are cruising around on expensive AM rigs when (in your opinion) they should be riding something cheaper and more in line with their ability. Is that right, or have I read you wrong?

 

[Guyechka]

I'd hope they're better looing in person, because IMO they're really freakin' ugly. Yuk.

All this labeling is getting really old, really fast. I don't give a hoot what you call the way I ride. All that matters is I enjoy doing it. And there is absolutly no reason to buy a whole bunch of new gear because you percieved that you switched from one riding group to another. For one thing, those definitions are subjective BS, and whatsmore it is rediculous to buy ANYTHING just so that you "fit in" with others. I mostly ride what is considered to be an XC HT, while almost all of my riding buddies ride 5-6" travel FSs. We ride the same trails, but choose to approach them completly differently from a technological standpoint. Whatever. We all like riding our bikes. That's what's important.

My LBS was building up a bike with these wheels. A VP free with these wheels would cost how much? We're talking on the order of five grand. But this struck home just how far someone could go with conspicuous AM consumption.

BTW: the frame was a matte black, and it did look really good with these wheels.