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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
A history of chain Skip on my 03 Heckler :
This is the story of me and my Hecklers little “Chain Skipping while going on up on technical terrain, especially while rear suspension impacts medium bumps on middle& small chain ring combined with low gears on the cog under strong chain tention…. ” problem:

A year and a half of blissful riding on this incredible frame can be divided to three periods:

First three months with a Shim Lx crank set – on the third month the chain started skipping …. Dealer says ” improper chain line” … = new crank \FSA Alfa drive with FSA BB

Next four months – no prob…until the fifth month “chain jumping” …had bended the crank arm meanwhile and… changed the whole thing again - Race Face XC prodigy with the same FSA BB – great crank set !

Last - no prob for six HOLE months….until again it started…swapped the middle chain ring ( cause that’s the classic cause I thought I figured by now) for FSA CNC 50$ crap – the prob came back after two [email protected] weeks.
Important to mention that do to (little) play the BB was changed to Truvative something – “same size” the dealer says.

Needless to say, I lub&clean well and I change chains as required all the time.

So , after doing some research here, and determined to kill the problem permanently, this is what I got:

New cassette XT
New chain HG 53
New Chain-rings – Shimano steal… this time

Chain line seems right – the BB Is almost new…

The problem persists!!! :confused:

Anyone has\ had this problem on their Heckler?? Is this a Heckler thing ??
Is there anyone out there on a Heckler who puts a LOT of force on the drive train that doesn’t have this problem ??? what’s your setup ?? can anyone put the finger on the problem at all?

Rares
 

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Slowest Rider
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Chain Skip Issues & Solutions

RARES said:
A history of chain Skip on my 03 Heckler :
This is the story of me and my Hecklers little "Chain Skipping while going on up on technical terrain, especially while rear suspension impacts medium bumps on middle& small chain ring combined with low gears on the cog under strong chain tention…. " problem:
Rares
I don't have a Heckler yet but am probably going to buy one in the next couple months. I'm big (270 lb with gear) and with steep climbs put a lot of stress on chains and components have had chain skipping (and breaking, and chain suck) and other problems. After a year,. the teeth on my rear cassette look like crescents instead of trapezoids. I find the following suggestions cured my problems completely and my drive train now lasts years instead of months.

You may have tried some of these, but didn't mention them. So I hope they help.

1. Chain wear cause the chain (and cassettes and chain ring) to wear out. This happened for me about every 3-8 months, depending on the amount of mud, sand, and climbing I did.
CURE: White Lighning was the only lubricant that worked. My chains now last years. My cassettes also last longer too - perhaps from less grime remaining stuck on my chain. (My new Trek Fuel had another chain grease on purchase and started getting severe damaging chain suck in only two days of use in hard climbs in mud. After White Lightning conversion. zero problems - 1.5 years now with good chains and cassette only half worn compared to before after 8 months.)

2. Derailleure adjustment can be slightly off and not noticible. It will only cause a skip once in a while by pulling the chain off the cassette. The derailleure cables can stretch after a few months and need slight readjustment.
CURE: Readjust derailure cables carefully

3. Bad chain link from installation of new chain. When installing a new chain, if I had a link that was a little stiff from reinsertion of the chain pin, the chain would skip at that point. I put a mark anywhere on the chain and whenever I got a skip I looked down and noted the chain was at the same position. This indicated a bad link.
CURE: Slowly check all the links on your chain by bending them (properly about the pin) one at a time at a steep 90+ angle and note if any are especially stiff or don't return easily. If some links are stiff from chain installation, bend them back and forth sideways (they way they're not supposed to bend) with stress on the bad pin until they loosen up. Slightly loose until they return isn't enough to stop skipping. They have to be really loose like the other links.

I'll keep thinking about other things.
-Larry
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
As I mentioned, currently my setup is all made with new components, so there can’t be a worn out part or parts.
Regarding the links –it’s a good thought but I hade them checked carefully – their fine. The thing Is, the symptom shows under rear suspension impact and not each time a harsh chain link meets a chain ring - doesn’t show on cycles as you would most likely expect from a chain link issue.
What frustrates most is the fact that I know this can be avoided. After all i had long periods of crazy hucking on the bike - going up stairs and rocks-I use to go down the single track and then climb back up…. problem free – but still now I cant put my finger on the problem yet.

At the moment I can forget about climbing anything.

Rares
 

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RARES said:
As I mentioned, currently my setup is all made with new components, so there can't be a worn out part or parts.
Rares
I saw the other three setups you had where the problems started after a few months, indicative of rapid wear. I missed the last setup where the problem occured immediately. Incidentally, I have had chain suck occur immediately (within 5-10 minutes) after replacement of the same drive train parts you describe for new ones - usually from hard riding in grimey conditions.
I'm thinking another problem I had from the muck I always went through is the deraillure cable would get gritty slowly shift or not properly shift. I'd hit two clicks but only shift once and later at some unexpected point, like when bouncing off a rock, get the second shift. I eventually got GoreTek coated derailure cables to fix this problem, which worked very well but cost over $100 if I remember right. A dirty derailleure will also behave badly (but I know you said you cleaned it.)

I can understand your problem has got you very frustrated it keeps you from any real riding (as did my problems). I hope you find the solution.
 

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fly like a beagle
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drivetrain im using

RARES said:
A history of chain Skip on my 03 Heckler :
This is the story of me and my Hecklers little "Chain Skipping while going on up on technical terrain, especially while rear suspension impacts medium bumps on middle& small chain ring combined with low gears on the cog under strong chain tention…. " problem:

A year and a half of blissful riding on this incredible frame can be divided to three periods:

First three months with a Shim Lx crank set - on the third month the chain started skipping …. Dealer says " improper chain line" … = new crank \FSA Alfa drive with FSA BB

Next four months - no prob…until the fifth month "chain jumping" …had bended the crank arm meanwhile and… changed the whole thing again - Race Face XC prodigy with the same FSA BB - great crank set !

Last - no prob for six HOLE months….until again it started…swapped the middle chain ring ( cause that's the classic cause I thought I figured by now) for FSA CNC 50$ crap - the prob came back after two [email protected] weeks.
Important to mention that do to (little) play the BB was changed to Truvative something - "same size" the dealer says.

Needless to say, I lub&clean well and I change chains as required all the time.

So , after doing some research here, and determined to kill the problem permanently, this is what I got:

New cassette XT
New chain HG 53
New Chain-rings - Shimano steal… this time

Chain line seems right - the BB Is almost new…

The problem persists!!! :confused:

Anyone has\ had this problem on their Heckler?? Is this a Heckler thing ??
Is there anyone out there on a Heckler who puts a LOT of force on the drive train that doesn't have this problem ??? what's your setup ?? can anyone put the finger on the problem at all?

Rares
03 Large
fox rlc125
XT m760 cranks 175mm
sram pc 99 chain
sram pg 990 cassette
sram x-9 derallier rear
xt front derallier
x-9 trigger shifters
I have had this combo on for 9 months no problem, not even a derailler adjustment. I weigh 185 and I mash peddles more than spin them. I coudnt be happier with this drivetrain.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Thanks

GaHeckler said:
03 Large
fox rlc125
XT m760 cranks 175mm
sram pc 99 chain
sram pg 990 cassette
sram x-9 derallier rear
xt front derallier
x-9 trigger shifters
I have had this combo on for 9 months no problem, not even a derailler adjustment. I weigh 185 and I mash peddles more than spin them. I coudnt be happier with this drivetrain.
Its good to know there are set ups free of this problem. Might just get that set up you ride. $$$$ :(

Rares
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Thanks – I am going to get rid of the prob. Just a matter of time. I’m intending of knowing what the exact cause is this time instead of hoping for “good fortune” each time I change a component.

Buy the way – Another a Heckler owner I know that has the same prob with a shim LX setup…. It might be a combination of causes.

Any way – the frame is fabulous, I hope this thread is not giving you any second thoughts – it shouldn’t. It’s the best bike I had so far. Maybe it’s a little sensitive to certain kind of setups (there are a few threads here containing this Heckler issue) but i intend and hope on finding that out!!!

Be sure to get it with a fifth coil,

Rares
 

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RARES said:
Thanks - I am going to get rid of the prob. Just a matter of time. I'm intending of knowing what the exact cause is this time instead of hoping for "good fortune" each time I change a component.

Buy the way - Another a Heckler owner I know that has the same prob with a shim LX setup…. It might be a combination of causes.

Any way - the frame is fabulous, I hope this thread is not giving you any second thoughts - it shouldn't. It's the best bike I had so far. Maybe it's a little sensitive to certain kind of setups (there are a few threads here containing this Heckler issue) but i intend and hope on finding that out!!!

Be sure to get it with a fifth coil,

Rares
Yea, you got to do some serious debugging now. Others here may offer further advice.

It seems your problem is chain skipping when hitting bumps on technical climbs. By the parts you replace, you seem to imply the skipping is on the chain ring, not the cassette, which is odd? Is this true or do you know for sure? I usually got chain skipping on the rear cassette and chain suck on the front chain ring.

Also, you didn't mention the deraillure replacement, for instance. If skipping is on the rear cassette, perhaps chain tension or derailleure adjustment or some other hidden derailleure flaw from physical damage on the trail?

I certainly hope it's not a Heckler design flaw and will keep watch on what other Heckler riders say, good or bad. I haven't heard this flaw described before, so I suspect it's a failure of some part you haven't found yet, and/or unique to your riding, or some combination.
Getting a new bike is like any upgrade. If you're lucky all goes well. But I count on fixing several small and sometimes major new problems any any new bike, no matter how good. So I don't go running at the sight of any one issue that may be particular to one or two riders. For instance, my new Fuel 90 disc had squealling rear brakes, soft front suspension, and chain suck right out of the shop. Each needed different fixes that took a lot of time. I'm replacing it now because the frame broke after 9 months and I read this is very common to large riders on the Fuel.

Along these lines, I hear not just one or two, but a large number of stories that say the 5th element coil is a great performer for those it doesn't fail, but also very unreliable. One shop owner said 20-30% of them come back in a few weeks (coil or air version), which matches what I read in the product forums here. They're especially bad for big riders like me. Fox has a new DHX5 shock that looks to be a clone of the 5th Element, with great reviews on performance, and Fox generally has much better reliabilty.
 

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Other Threads?

RARES said:
(there are a few threads here containing this Heckler issue) Rares
I tried looking for the other threads you describe under "Heckler chain skip" and "chain skip". I didn't find anything specifically under Hecker, but found one issue on the Blur with an email reply from Scott at Santa Cruz Bikes that has a number of generic issue that can cause ghost shifting - not your exact problem but closely related. The Santa Cruz list of things too look at can be found in response #13 from Slither at
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=38348&highlight=chain+skip
 

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You know what would really help ?

RARES said:
A history of chain Skip on my 03 Heckler :
This is the story of me and my Hecklers little "Chain Skipping while going on up on technical terrain, especially while rear suspension impacts medium bumps on middle& small chain ring combined with low gears on the cog under strong chain tention…. " problem:

A year and a half of blissful riding on this incredible frame can be divided to three periods:

First three months with a Shim Lx crank set - on the third month the chain started skipping …. Dealer says " improper chain line" … = new crank \FSA Alfa drive with FSA BB

Next four months - no prob…until the fifth month "chain jumping" …had bended the crank arm meanwhile and… changed the whole thing again - Race Face XC prodigy with the same FSA BB - great crank set !

Last - no prob for six HOLE months….until again it started…swapped the middle chain ring ( cause that's the classic cause I thought I figured by now) for FSA CNC 50$ crap - the prob came back after two [email protected] weeks.
Important to mention that do to (little) play the BB was changed to Truvative something - "same size" the dealer says.

Needless to say, I lub&clean well and I change chains as required all the time.

So , after doing some research here, and determined to kill the problem permanently, this is what I got:

New cassette XT
New chain HG 53
New Chain-rings - Shimano steal… this time

Chain line seems right - the BB Is almost new…

The problem persists!!! :confused:

Anyone has\ had this problem on their Heckler?? Is this a Heckler thing ??
Is there anyone out there on a Heckler who puts a LOT of force on the drive train that doesn't have this problem ??? what's your setup ?? can anyone put the finger on the problem at all?

Rares
If you post a picture of your chain line. Unless you do this, it will be really difficult to put a finger on the cause of your problem.
 

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Did you do all the installations or did your shop?

One thing I've had a problem with occasionally was my derailleur hanger would be a bit out of whack (I just got a new one, will replace it soon). I did bend it good last year and straightened it then instead of replacing it so it's no big surprise. I do have the proper tool so I've been checking it occasionally and I have had to straighten it a couple of times. I wonder if you had a shop install the stuff they might have automatically done this as part of the service, which might explain why it takes a while to come back after you have replaced stuff.

Only other thing I can think of with all the ring/cogset replacing going on is that the derailleur is properly adjusted and the cable is running clean and free in the housing...you running continuous housing on your rear derailleur? I have bent cogs on Shimano XT cassettes three times now, twice it was really hard to see the bends and it wasn't one of the first things I looked for either.

BTW I run old Shimano LX square taper cranks with RaceFace rings, XT cassette and derailleurs, 110mm
Shimano BB. Usually bulletproof drivetrain.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Ok people - first conclusion :

My chain line is a prime suspect!!! - "but why ??" :

It appears that though my BB was replaced for different name but same size - 113mm, IT DOES NOT mean my chain line stayed the same.

your going to love this :

On ISIS method, the spindle length does NOT indicate the chain line you will have (unlike ShimanoBB). Apparently there seems to be another factor that determines this critical element with ISIS:

While the crank is slid in to place, it slides on the BB spindle until it meets "stops" machined on the spindle itself. Those "stops" determine how far inwards your crank will slide on the spindle thus actually determining the chain line.

On the ISIS (standard) web page, they specifically note that not the BB spindle length will determine the Chain line as the location of the those "stops" will. Those have a mentioned value\ number on the BB along with the spindle length.

The "common" dealer doesn't know these things and It so happens that FSA, Truvative etc. don't mention these values on there web pages. ISIS set a standard and don't stand behind it. How pathetic :mad:

From my impression so far my crank is now off a fewmm ( 4-5mm) outwards regardless the fact that the new BB spindle length is the same.

What a shame and bliss if this turns out to be the cause.

Will let you know,

Rares
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Bikinfoolferlife said:
One thing I've had a problem with occasionally was my derailleur hanger would be a bit out of whack (I just got a new one, will replace it soon). I did bend it good last year and straightened it then instead of replacing it so it's no big surprise. I do have the proper tool so I've been checking it occasionally and I have had to straighten it a couple of times. I wonder if you had a shop install the stuff they might have automatically done this as part of the service, which might explain why it takes a while to come back after you have replaced stuff.

Only other thing I can think of with all the ring/cogset replacing going on is that the derailleur is properly adjusted and the cable is running clean and free in the housing...you running continuous housing on your rear derailleur? I have bent cogs on Shimano XT cassettes three times now, twice it was really hard to see the bends and it wasn't one of the first things I looked for either.

BTW I run old Shimano LX square taper cranks with RaceFace rings, XT cassette and derailleurs, 110mm
Shimano BB. Usually bulletproof drivetrain.
I had everything inspected thoroughly AND let me remind you the I hade this problem before and has been instantly solved by changing crank&BB. Now the prob came back after messing with the crank set again….

I might just get a square Taper BB like you where I can Fix the chain line exactly where I want it. It seems they are more reliable as well. I had three splined BB replaced this year = joke - how do you like yours? Do you think square Tap Have more flex than other methods??

Rares
 

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Have you checked that your gear cable is not too short. I once had a Norco VPS Fluid and it had a too short rear gear cable. When I hitted a big bump it allways ghost shifted, because the movement of the link tightened the cable and caused a ghost shift.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Uper middle cog - #4 & mid chainring

angelic fruitcake said:
If you post a picture of your chain line. Unless you do this, it will be really difficult to put a finger on the cause of your problem.
Hope it shows anything
 

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