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When I was reassembling Marzocchi Z1 FR 2004 after oil change, I noticed that a top portion of HSCV damping shaft was slightly bent and the top cap didn't fit to the thread on the crown. So I stupidly tried bending the shaft back to straight, but it's broken off in the middle of the thread (1/2 inch from the tip) unfortunately. So I need to get a new HSCV cartridge. Does anyone know how and where I can get it? And around how much is it?
 

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Amphibious Technologies
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shomatsuura said:
So I need to get a new HSCV cartridge.
Marzocchi doesn't make cartridge type dampers. Although 'zoke calls it a cartridge, they actually use old school, non-tuneable damping rod technology from the 50's. Which, BTW still works very well but is not amenable to tuning/re-valving. You can call Zoke directly to order the HSCV damping rod.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Update

Thank you for the info, dscot420 and SCUBAPRO. I called both Marzocchi USA and a LBS. Marzocchi told me that you have to order the HSCV damper through a bike shop, so I did it. Hopefully it will come within 3-4 days. It may cost me around $120. Oh, boy!
 

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SCUBAPRO said:
Marzocchi doesn't make cartridge type dampers. Although 'zoke calls it a cartridge, they actually use old school, non-tuneable damping rod technology from the 50's. Which, BTW still works very well but is not amenable to tuning/re-valving. You can call Zoke directly to order the HSCV damping rod.
you have no idea what you are talking about;

Marzocchi makes BOTH cartridge forks (HSCV/TST) and damper rod forks (SSV/SSVF).

I can take a picture of a shiver cartridge I have lying around if you are curious, the marzocchi cartridge dampers have pistons and shims just like a motorcross cartridge damper. The cheaper damping rod dampers have fixed-holes that the fluid has to flow through, this is why they spike and are generally no where near as good as marzocchi's cartridge forks. The new TST cartridges use "bladder" technology that is in use in some of the newest motocross forks, and interestingly it works pretty darn good, some of the earlier bladder-motorcross cartridges didn't work so well, but marzocchi's done a good job with them.
 

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shomatsuura said:
Thank you for the info, dscot420 and SCUBAPRO. I called both Marzocchi USA and a LBS. Marzocchi told me that you have to order the HSCV damper through a bike shop, so I did it. Hopefully it will come within 3-4 days. It may cost me around $120. Oh, boy!
Hey, if you're spending $120 on the HSCV cartridge, why won't you get the TST cartridge fromt the AM1 instead? It costs roughly the same, fits inside of the Z1 and you will have a better fork as a result.

_MK
 

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Jm. said:
you have no idea what you are talking about;
Marzocchi makes BOTH cartridge forks (HSCV/TST) and damper rod forks (SSV/SSVF).
Hmm! Perhaps they have pistons but they still make use of damper rod ports to control damping which is not amenable to revalving. See pic of a HSCV cartridge from an 888, below:
 

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SCUBAPRO said:
Hmm! Perhaps they have pistons but they still make use of damper rod ports to control damping which is not amenable to revalving. See pic of a HSCV cartridge from an 888, below:
That is a cartridge, it's not a sealed cartridge(hence the ports) which is what allows the open bath oil to lubricate and serve as damping fluid. My TST cartridge is sealed and the oil bath fluid is seperate from the damping fluid. The ports also serve some sort of low-speed compression purpose, and can change the action of the cartridge a little, but we are talking about pretty minor differences when you consider the piston and shims inside the cartridge. In other words those are minor "tweaks", while most of the stuff is going on inside obviously.

Inside that 888 cartridge is a piston and shims, the shims are the essential part of a cartridge damper.
 

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MK_ said:
Hey, if you're spending $120 on the HSCV cartridge, why won't you get the TST cartridge fromt the AM1 instead? It costs roughly the same, fits inside of the Z1 and you will have a better fork as a result.

_MK
because the cartridge on the AM1 is sealed, has less oil volume, and may not be the best choice for DH/FR riding.
 

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Jm. said:
That is a cartridge, it's not a sealed cartridge(hence the ports) which is what allows the open bath oil to lubricate and serve as damping fluid. My TST cartridge is sealed and the oil bath fluid is seperate from the damping fluid. The ports also serve some sort of low-speed compression purpose, and can change the action of the cartridge a little, but we are talking about pretty minor differences when you consider the piston and shims inside the cartridge. In other words those are minor "tweaks", while most of the stuff is going on inside obviously.

Inside that 888 cartridge is a piston and shims, the shims are the essential part of a cartridge damper.
Point taken! We, however, are talking semantics here. It all depends on how you define a "cartridge". In the case of the TST, I agree with you that it is a cartridge as you decribe it.

In regard to ports making only a minor difference, I think the guys at go ride will disagree with you (see go-ride.com riding tips section)...Here's a quote from Scott: "My first setting was covering all 5 holes. I found that in the parking lot I could get close to full travel (180 mm), but on the trail the compression kicked in so much harder I could not get anymore than 180 mm." That sounds like a major difference, won't you agree?
 

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The 888 compression hole thing is kind of blown out of proportion, for most riders it has not been necessary to cover them up and they have gotten by fine without the sleeve and they love their 888s just the same. I don't know exactly what effect the holes and sleeve have, but they might force the compression damper (the shims) to do more of the work, where when the holes are open it allows some of the fluid to bleed and you basically get less compression damping. With the shims you won't get a "spike" obviously, and you can't force the 888 to act like a pumping rod fork, but by having those holes it allows a few minor "tweaks" to the action.

The go-ride guide is very good for tweaking the fork to get the most out of it, but most people that use the fork are pretty happy with the way it is normally and don't need to go into such depth about it. The go-ride guys cater to a lot of hypersensitive racers and obviously that resource does some good, but marzocchi has been using cartridge dampers for a long time. They were called (to confuse people) SSV cartridges back in the day, not to be confused with SSV which is a completely different damping system. The SSV cartridges were renamed HSCV cartridges, and then underwent some serious changes with forks like the 888 and 66, in terms of operation and adjustments (compression). They've always been cartridges, and they always will as long as they have the essential parts. The biggest reason to seperate their cart forks from their pumping-rod forks is just that the performance gap is huge, the MX, Jr T and dropoff type forks spike at high speed and feel pretty crappy when you are riding fast. The cartridge damped forks feel great at speed because the shims allow the oil to flow to the orofice relative to the impact, instead of being forced through a constant size hole irregardless of the force of impact (SSV and SSVF).
 

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Jm. said:
the marzocchi cartridge dampers have pistons and shims just like a motorcross cartridge damper.
are you sure? I have never seen the guts of a marzocchi cartridge. Someone has got?
I'm still not convinced they've got *real* speed sensitive shims, one-way check valves apart.
otherwise, why not show them?
 

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ClaudeFr said:
are you sure? I have never seen the guts of a marzocchi cartridge. Someone has got?
I'm still not convinced they've got *real* speed sensitive shims, one-way check valves apart.
otherwise, why not show them?
yes, i'm sure.
 

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thanks.
could you please tell me if your knowledge of that comes from a visual examination of the guts of a marzocchi cartridge or from other sources of information...?
sorry for being arrogant, but it's really for the sake of curiosity. I'm a long time Marzocchi user. I'm a long time lurker of this forum. I consider you a great expert.
but...I've seen a 888 cartridge which piston rod unthreaded from the piston. It seemed that inside the cartridge only remained a (threded) piston...no other little pieces...like shims.
here's why my skepticism.
sorry for my bad English.
TIA
 

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ClaudeFr said:
I've seen a 888 cartridge which piston rod unthreaded from the piston. It seemed that inside the cartridge only remained a (threaded) piston...no shims.
TIA
Nice observation TIA!!! Now that you mentioned that, if the 888 had shims then it would essentially have a "platform" because the shims would cover the piston ports and only open up upon reaching a predetermined threshold. We, however, know that the 888 does not have a "platform" which indicates that it does not have shims. If it doesn't then it's not similar to motocross fork cartridges which uses piston and shims without the damper rod exit ports. If that's true then the 888 and a majority of the 'Zokes do not have a true cartridge!!! I think the same holds true for the HSCV dampers in the Z1 and Z150s (I've had both and they sure did not have a platform). no shims = no revalve.

I'm now, curious to see the pic JM mentioned above showing the shims from his zoke HSCV cartridge.
 

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ClaudeFr said:
thanks.
could you please tell me if your knowledge of that comes from a visual examination of the guts of a marzocchi cartridge or from other sources of information...?
sorry for being arrogant, but it's really for the sake of curiosity. I'm a long time Marzocchi user. I'm a long time lurker of this forum. I consider you a great expert.
but...I've seen a 888 cartridge which piston rod unthreaded from the piston. It seemed that inside the cartridge only remained a (threded) piston...no other little pieces...like shims.
here's why my skepticism.
sorry for my bad English.
TIA
Going back to the mid and even early 1990s, marzocchi has always used shimmed dampers on their high end forks. Back then you could get at the piston inside of the cartridge, and get at the shims. When they came out with the bomber chassi that part changed and you could no longer access them for the most part. Same basic damper, but harnessed with coil springs in a new chassi. If you had ridden the old DH3, you'd know the lineage and the fact that their dampers hadn't really changed, only the chassi and spring mechanism. That is how they've been on top for a long time, and the cartridge lineage goes on as I explained above. Yes, I have a shiver cartridge here that I took out of my fork, yes I can see shims in the holes when I shine a light through with the piston at the right position. No, I can not open the thing up without damaging it.

I seriously doubt that the 888s do not have shims, the catridge diameter is not huge, and the piston is not huge either, so you kind of have to know what you are looking for when you are looking for the shims.
 

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Jm. said:
Going back to the mid and even early 1990s, marzocchi has always used shimmed dampers on their high end forks. Back then you could get at the piston inside of the cartridge, and get at the shims.
I have still a 1990 MX100 (today unused), my first suspension fork
Jm. said:
When they came out with the bomber chassi that part changed and you could no longer access them for the most part. Same basic damper, but harnessed with coil springs in a new chassi. If you had ridden the old DH3, you'd know the lineage and the fact that their dampers hadn't really changed, only the chassi and spring mechanism.
you're right...on and old bike, I've got a red DH3 with the spring kit (I use it with no air preload)...it works so good my younger friends can't believe it
Jm. said:
That is how they've been on top for a long time, and the cartridge lineage goes on as I explained above. Yes, I have a shiver cartridge here that I took out of my fork, yes I can see shims in the holes when I shine a light through with the piston at the right position. No, I can not open the thing up without damaging it.
well...if only my 2001 MCR wasn't so good in shape...I would cut its cartridges in half...for the sake of curiosity :)
Jm. said:
I seriously doubt that the 888s do not have shims, the catridge diameter is not huge, and the piston is not huge either, so you kind of have to know what you are looking for when you are looking for the shims.
actually I can't state for sure it hasn't...but it made me wonder... :confused:
 

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SCUBAPRO said:
Nice observation TIA!!! Now that you mentioned that, if the 888 had shims then it would essentially have a "platform" because the shims would cover the piston ports and only open up upon reaching a predetermined threshold.
sorry SCUBAPRO but shims are neither sufficient nor necessary to make a platform.
besides, a simple low speed bypass can cancel any platform effect.

ciao
claude
 

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ClaudeFr said:
sorry SCUBAPRO but shims are neither sufficient nor necessary to make a platform.
besides, a simple low speed bypass can cancel any platform effect.

ciao
claude
Well, if you are talking about SPV or the Curnutt shocks then that is a totally diferent platform mechanism (pneumatic) which obviously does not need shims compared to Fox's, DR's, Fabtech's, or King's hydraulic system. I was refering to the hydraulic system not pneumatic since we all know 'zokes don't have SPV or Curnut style platform.

I agree with you that bleed ports do cancel platform damping, that is what Fox does with the 36RC2's low speed compression knob which controls a bleed port but the shims (i.e. valves) are what controls the platform! [I know this from offroad vehicle hydraulic suspension systems.] That is why I recommend closing the low speed compression on the 36RC2.
 

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Jm. said:
JM Says: I can take a picture of a shiver cartridge I have lying around if you are curious, the marzocchi cartridge dampers have pistons and shims just like a motorcross cartridge damper.
Please do! We would like to see that. Thank you.
 
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