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Discussion Starter #1
I went to an LBS about buying a replacement spoke for one that broke on a machine-built wheel. Told no less than 2 shoppies about the specific size needed (285mm). Waited around for a bit as they cut one. Received spoke and went home for lunch.

Measured at 290mm.

Went back. Got an old wrench asking me if I actually asked for 285mm (deep inner sigh, outward smile). If I were stupid, I would have asked for ~10mm less (i.e. minus the nipple insertion). If I were anal about a build but fucked up the error direction, I would have erred by ~1mm short/long. I had with me a drafting ruler with me to make sure I didn't have to make a 3rd trip.

He asks how I'm measuring.
I tell him from the center of the head. I show him.
He says he measures from inside the bend. He busts out a spoke ruler.
I tell him, "See? It's offset."
He says, "It's a spoke ruler."

(No ficking shut, Sherlock. Have you looked at it carefully to see that it is offset to approximately account for the thickness of the spoke?)
(Deep inner sigh, outward smile)

Anyways, it's now 285mm. I thank him quickly and leave.

There is no moral to the story. I don't have enough patience with people, but they really don't make it easy. I'm sure when I was younger, I would have fought for mutual understanding. Now that I'm older, I'm much less inclined to waste time and effort. (There in lies the judgement: "waste".) I think these past few years have quashed whatever idealism I have about people. I do wonder who I will be even older.
 

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Yeah, the other day I had a sub-par experience at a restaurant that I hadn't been to before. There's no moral or reason for my story but there you have it.
 

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Fart smeller
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Yeah, the other day I had a sub-par experience at a restaurant that I hadn't been to before. There's no moral or reason for my story but there you have it.
I ate there. Once.
 

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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
Yeah, the other day I had a sub-par experience at a restaurant that I hadn't been to before. There's no moral or reason for my story but there you have it.
So, re-telling the story in restaurant terms:

I order a chicken sandwich to-go.

I find out at home that they gave me a burger. I go back.

The fast-order-cook goes, "you ~sure~ you ordered a chicken sandwich?"

I go, "~yeah~?"

He fixes me a chicken sandwich. He asks me, "so how do you determine it's a chicken sandwich?"

I furl my brows (on the inside) at the question. "I look in it?"

He busts out a Chicken-Sandwich-Encabulator-Tron, apparently a silhouette-cutout of a chicken sandwich. He fits it over the chicken sandwich. "It's a chicken sandwich."

I thank him and leave, while facepalming violently in my mind
 

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Fart smeller
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"Furl"???

Ooh, I learned a word today. Altho I'm familiar with unfurl.

Thanks for that!
 
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So, re-telling the story in restaurant terms:

I order a chicken sandwich to-go.

I find out at home that they gave me a burger. I go back.

The fast-order-cook goes, "you ~sure~ you ordered a chicken sandwich?"

I go, "~yeah~?"

He fixes me a chicken sandwich. He asks me, "so how do you determine it's a chicken sandwich?"

I furl my brows (on the inside) at the question. "I look in it?"

He busts out a Chicken-Sandwich-Encabulator-Tron, apparently a silhouette-cutout of a chicken sandwich. He fits it over the chicken sandwich. "It's a chicken sandwich."

I thank him and leave, while facepalming violently in my mind
Pretty darn specific in measurement from that cook...im glad you accepted the defeat in expectation and explanation. So, will you return back to that restaurant?

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk
 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
Pretty darn specific in measurement from that cook...im glad you accepted the defeat in expectation and explanation. So, will you return back to that restaurant?
Oh absolutely. Because I didn't pay at a level (and by extension, the LBS didn't pay at a level) for rock-solid competence, and so I shouldn't expect it. I got a curmudgeony old wrench who is probably experienced and set-in-his-ways (even if they might not be textbook correct; one conceptual error cancelling out another, and/or workable rules-of-thumb), who's probably overworked and maybe mildly-stoned because working on other people's abused bikes isn't that fulfilling. His moment of confusion to inconsequential effect is only fit for a rant, not a judgement. It's not like I paid a custom wheelbuilder $1k+ for a bespoke wheelset. I paid a LBS $2 to cut and cut thread on a basic spoke* (probably another DT Industry).

Of course, this is also why I'm pretty much only a face/ream/chase-tool-short of a moderately-equipped bike shop.

* No, I wasn't trying to acquire a cheap spoke; that was the only thing they had. The decline of enthusiast wheelbuilding in the face of pre-built/system wheels is a whole other discussion.
 

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It's always good to have a good wheel-builder close-by. I'm not of that skillset, so the local independent dude is good for the hook ups.
 

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For a sec, I questioned how I've been measuring the spokes I used for building my own wheels (not a pro by any means, only 11 successful wheels so far). So I had a little stroll around the interwebs. For the record, I've always measured from the inside of the bend. Pretty sure I read that somewhere...let's see.

I guess Sheldon was wrong? Yeah, that Sheldon.
Skip on down to "Checking spoke length", about 3/4 down the page.

Or Worldwide Cyclery - yeah, they're prolly wrong, too. They only do this stuff every day, but they sell other bike stuff besides just wheels so let's go on.

Maybe a UK pro wheel builder. Oops, they do it from guess where.

Of course there's Park Tool, whose ruler you despise for absolutely no valid reason. It measures like everyone else does - from inside the elbow. Did you ever ask yourself why there's a tool made to measure it a certain way or how a company could sell said tool if it gave incorrect measurements?

Now, ask me why it's done this way and almost every other measurement in engineering goes from the center and I can't tell you. I only know this is how it has been for a very long time and is the accepted method. I also know that all the online spoke calculators account for this method of measurement, so if you're just replacing a broken spoke you can measure in bat hairs for all anyone cares. On the other hand, if you're going to build a wheel and not redo all the formulas to calculate spoke length based on the "bat hair" scale, you're going to just have to accept it for what it is. And if you're going into a bike shop...well, yeah.

Just because you're old and cranky doesn't make you right.
 

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I am prepared to take the hate I get from this comment, but this is why I pretty much order everything online. It's cheaper, I know exactly what I want and stuff gets delivered quick. No one at Universal Cycles or Jenson is going to argue with you about whether or not you measured your spoke accurately. I get people wanting to support their LBS, but I used to work in one and quite frankly I know more about the stuff I am working on than a lot of the 18 year old kids working in most shops.

Much like the DMV, when I have to go to a bike shop these days for anything shop related I just assume I am not going to have a great experience.
 

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Fart smeller
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Discussion Starter #17 (Edited)
For a sec, I questioned how I've been measuring the spokes I used for building my own wheels (not a pro by any means, only 11 successful wheels so far). So I had a little stroll around the interwebs. For the record, I've always measured from the inside of the bend. Pretty sure I read that somewhere...let's see.

I guess Sheldon was wrong? Yeah, that Sheldon.
Skip on down to "Checking spoke length", about 3/4 down the page.

Or Worldwide Cyclery - yeah, they're prolly wrong, too. They only do this stuff every day, but they sell other bike stuff besides just wheels so let's go on.

Maybe a UK pro wheel builder. Oops, they do it from guess where.

Now, ask me why it's done this way and almost every other measurement in engineering goes from the center and I can't tell you. I only know this is how it has been for a very long time and is the accepted method. I also know that all the online spoke calculators account for this method of measurement, so if you're just replacing a broken spoke you can measure in bat hairs for all anyone cares. On the other hand, if you're going to build a wheel and not redo all the formulas to calculate spoke length based on the "bat hair" scale, you're going to just have to accept it for what it is. And if you're going into a bike shop...well, yeah.
I fully accept your correction on the norms of how it is done in wheelbuilding and fully admit that the old wrench was correct on that front, transforming my rant here into that of a lesson on the norms of wheelbuilding. But as you admitted yourself, it makes no engineering sense, esp. given that spoke calculations are made from the centers of the hub spoke holes.

Of course there's Park Tool, whose ruler you despise for absolutely no valid reason. It measures like everyone else does - from inside the elbow. Did you ever ask yourself why there's a tool made to measure it a certain way or how a company could sell said tool if it gave incorrect measurements?
Now you're putting words in my mouth. Where did I say anything against his measuring tool? My beef was that despite coming to the correct measurement after he recut the spoke, he busted-out his purpose-specific tool for extra authority. What I said was that the spoke ruler he busted out was relieved for ~1mm to account for the spoke thickness at the neck. And I continue to stand by that (despite seeing online pics that do not show Park spoke rulers being relieved for this. But this was also decidedly not a Park Tool in its trademark blue anodizing and its offset-to-one side spoke head slot. This was plain stainless with the teardrop-shaped spoke head slot right down the center.) for two reasons: 1) I was paying attention specifically for this, because it makes engineering sense in a workshop context, and 2) WE BOTH CAME TO THE SAME MEASUREMENT AFTER HE RECUT THE SPOKE, despite the nominally-different measuring methods.

So no, this tool of his didn't actually measure from inside the elbow. And TBH, this rant (prior to your correction on the norms) would have taken on a wholly different tone (even more strident) if it had been truly measuring from inside the elbow. This is why I quickly accepted the product (because it was correct by what I wanted) despite rolling my eyes on the inside. My rant prior to your correction on the norms was exasperation along the lines of, "Do you not see that we're actually measuring it the same way? Have you not looked carefully at your measuring tool, as I was able to assess at a glance when you put it in my face?"

Now per your correction on my ignorance of the norms, and his measuring tool's subversion of those norms, this was a whole Gordian knot of errors.

Just because you're old and cranky doesn't make you right.
But none of this explains why he cut and cut thread on the spoke a whole 5mm too long the first time around, and then challenging me as if I spec'ed erroneously. So I'm pretty sure where I stand on this front.

Aside: This is a spoke ruler that is touted by one of my favorite wheelbuilding suppliers, Wheel Fanatyk (one reason along many given that he alone is carrying the torch for Spline Drive(-ish, long story) nipples. This was not what the old wrench was using, but this spoke ruler here is also obviously relieved to account for the neck diameter, effectively measuring at closer to the center of head. The norm you have corrected me on is obviously something that comes with a wink.

 

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I fully accept your correction on the norms of how it is done in wheelbuilding and fully admit that the old wrench was correct on that front, transforming my rant here into that of a lesson on the norms of wheelbuilding. But as you admitted yourself, it makes no engineering sense, esp. given that spoke calculations are made from the centers of the hub spoke holes.



Now you're putting words in my mouth. Where did I say anything against his measuring tool? My beef was that despite coming to the correct measurement after he recut the spoke, he busted-out his purpose-specific tool for extra authority. What I said was that the spoke ruler he busted out was relieved for ~1mm to account for the spoke thickness at the neck. And I continue to stand by that (despite seeing online pics that do not show Park spoke rulers being relieved for this. But this was also decidedly not a Park Tool in its trademark blue anodizing and its offset-to-one side spoke head slot. This was plain stainless with the teardrop-shaped spoke head slot right down the center.) for two reasons: 1) I was paying attention specifically for this, because it makes engineering sense in a workshop context, and 2) WE BOTH CAME TO THE SAME MEASUREMENT AFTER HE RECUT THE SPOKE, despite the nominally-different measuring methods.

So no, this tool of his didn't actually measure from inside the elbow. And TBH, this rant (prior to your correction on the norms) would have taken on a wholly different tone (even more strident) if it had been truly measuring from inside the elbow. This is why I quickly accepted the product (because it was correct by what I wanted) despite rolling my eyes on the inside. My rant prior to your correction on the norms was exasperation along the lines of, "Do you not see that we're actually measuring it the same way? Have you not looked carefully at your measuring tool, as I was able to assess at a glance when you put it in my face?"

Now per your correction on my ignorance of the norms, and his measuring tool's subversion of those norms, this was a whole Gordian knot of errors.



But none of this explains why he cut and cut thread on the spoke a whole 5mm too long the first time around, and then challenging me as if I spec'ed erroneously. So I'm pretty sure where I stand on this front.
I knew you'd have some diatribe about how wrong I am and how impeccably perfect your logic must be. Loving the condescending attitude as I'm sure the mechanic must have. I can only imagine the way you acted towards him during both encounters. Even if he made a mistake, no one deserves that level of BS. Good luck out there in the real world and welcome to my iggy list.
 

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Discussion Starter #19 (Edited)
I knew you'd have some diatribe about how wrong I am and how impeccably perfect your logic must be. Loving the condescending attitude as I'm sure the mechanic must have. I can only imagine the way you acted towards him during both encounters. Even if he made a mistake, no one deserves that level of BS. Good luck out there in the real world and welcome to my iggy list.
Diatribe - n. a forceful and bitter verbal attack against someone or something.

Ok...?

Somehow I don't think you're reading what I wrote, and are substituting-in a lot of what you'd rather believe I said/did. You did that in your initial response in terms of the spoke ruler, and now I see this is apparently a thing you do.

That's fine, everybody to their own.
 

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Yeah, the other day I had a sub-par experience at a restaurant that I hadn't been to before. There's no moral or reason for my story but there you have it.
But did you die?
 
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