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· Formerly PaintPeelinPbody
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Pinkbike mentioned that the Super Deluxe will get Hydraulic Bottom Out.

To be clear, this was in reference to the AIR SHOCK that Levy was testing with Flight Attendant.

We saw some spy shots of the 2022 models earlier this year, with the dial on the side of the reservoir obviously being necessary for the Flight Attendant servo.

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...but I think that this addition of hydraulic bottom out is a good one. It'll allow heavier riders like me to remove all the volume spacers, have a tune with proper compression damping, then rely on the HBO for big hits while still maintaining good mid-stroke support.

Here's hoping that they don't mess up the damping design and make it impossible to tune.
 

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I love the HBO in my Manitou forks. Takes an oh crap landing from being a hard slam to firm and controlled landing. One thing many don’t understand about an HBO and its advantage over spring ramp up is it also dampens the rebound from the extreme compression as the fluid flows back through the HBO. This helps control bucking if you overshoot.

I still am not understanding the Butter Cups. Has anyone seen a drawing or clear explanation of what they do?
 

· Formerly PaintPeelinPbody
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Discussion Starter · #4 · (Edited)
The Buttercup is just an isolator at the bottom of the air shaft making the shaft not solid (giggity).

It works the same way as the EXT Era's coil spring does, Manitou Mars Air, DT Swiss CoilPair, etc. Acts like a more freely moving spring in the initial stroke, allowing the fork to get moving when air spring seal drag might be creating stiction for small bump compliance.



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The advantage to the Buttercups is the design is significantly lighter and simpler than a small coil spring. Downside would be the rubber might get firmer with cold weather.
 

· Formerly PaintPeelinPbody
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
More detailed shot of the 22' Super Deluxe Ultimate:

It actually looks a little bit different than the spy shots.
 

· Elitest thrill junkie
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Pinkbike mentioned that the Super Deluxe will get Hydraulic Bottom Out.

To be clear, this was in reference to the AIR SHOCK that Levy was testing with Flight Attendant.

We saw some spy shots of the 2022 models earlier this year, with the dial on the side of the reservoir obviously being necessary for the Flight Attendant servo.

View attachment 1951379

...but I think that this addition of hydraulic bottom out is a good one. It'll allow heavier riders like me to remove all the volume spacers, have a tune with proper compression damping, then rely on the HBO for big hits while still maintaining good mid-stroke support.

Here's hoping that they don't mess up the damping design and make it impossible to tune.
I'm not sure what that achieves with an air-shock and it's inherent natural progressiveness at the end of travel. The reason we've done these on coil shocks is they lack that inherent feature or are being used on bikes that were intended for air shocks and their natural progressiveness. I suppose it could add for a little more control in the situation, having damping match the spring ramp-up, but to my knowledge this typically hasn't been a big issue with air shocks...
 

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I'm not sure what that achieves with an air-shock and it's inherent natural progressiveness at the end of travel. The reason we've done these on coil shocks is they lack that inherent feature or are being used on bikes that were intended for air shocks and their natural progressiveness. I suppose it could add for a little more control in the situation, having damping match the spring ramp-up, but to my knowledge this typically hasn't been a big issue with air shocks...
Hydraulic resistance at the end of the stroke would still benefit an air spring by dissipating the bottom out energy. So a combination of the 2 would work well and reduce the bucking feeling from hitting the end of the travel too fast
 

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More detailed shot of the 22' Super Deluxe Ultimate:

It actually looks a little bit different than the spy shots.
Ahh, I see, allow a little float before the seals move.
 

· Elitest thrill junkie
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Hydraulic resistance at the end of the stroke would still benefit an air spring by dissipating the bottom out energy. So a combination of the 2 would work well and reduce the bucking feeling from hitting the end of the travel too fast
Well that's why I mentioned control at the end when it's engaging. That would seem to be the main benefit. I'm just not sure if people will understand it.
 

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It works the same way as the EXT Era's coil spring does
yes and no ;) the coil spring in the EXT is only required due to the design of the air piston and the negative chamber: since there's no dimple in the stanchion but that plunger in the piston, you'll always have a force difference: the piston tops out, the plunger opens the valve for pressure equalization, but there won't be any force equalization (Fox, RS can move a little further beyond the dimple, the pressure in the neg. chamber increases until the spring forces are equal). So you need some other ways to get the fork move with 0 breakaway force. From top out of the fork, initially the spring is compressed, until the spring force overcomes the force difference in the main air spring.
 

· Formerly PaintPeelinPbody
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Is it possible that maybe Rockshox is ditching the equalization dimple?

That'd be rad on the shocks, but they too would need a Buttercup setup.

As far as the HBO on air shocks it's all about being able to get a more linear spring curve. That's what makes coils feel the way they way do (although seal drag and initial stiction are also reduced). If we can get more linear air springs with the natural progressive curve of air, but with the added benefit of HBO, then we'll be on the right track towards "coil-like feel" of shocks.

With HBO, an air shock can actually take advantage of higher volume.
 

· Formerly PaintPeelinPbody
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
It might be argued that HBO on a shock does not hold as much advantage due to the shorter stroke, vs a fork with much longer range for which to work. Many have been saying that a progressive frame has natural bottom out characteristics, and that's true, but what if you don't really want that progressive feeling? You'd normally go to a coil shock in that situation.

However, unlike coil shocks where you can mess with the shape of a bottom out bumper to "tune" the bottom out, an air shock has significantly less room for which to work.

So in some ways, an air shock (at least one with enough stroke) is a more ideal implementation of HBO.

Don't get me wrong, having a good damping setup and traditional shim stack is priority, hence why I hope that Rockshox doesn't lock down the tuning options on that end, even if the shock does have this cool HBO feature.
 

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I have hydraulic bottom out on my Mara Pro and Mattoc,
not only can you adjust them , but they work well
Unless you received a really special one, Mara Pros do not have an HBO. Manitou uses HBO in the Mattoc, Mezzer, and Dorado forks.
 

· Elitest thrill junkie
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So HBO isn’t bottom out?
With no knowledge of the Mara, bottom out adjustment takes many different varieties. Only some of these are hydraulic bottom-outs that use damping (usually a cone arrangement) at the end of stroke to forcefully "slow" the end stroke.
 

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So HBO isn’t bottom out?
HBO is a hydraulic bottom out. Manitou uses it in their longer travel forks. They do not use it in their shocks, the mara pro uses a standard bottom out bumper, as do all their shocks. EXT uses a hydraulic bottom out in their coil shock and I believe are the only bike shock company that does.
 

· Elitest thrill junkie
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EXT uses a hydraulic bottom out in their coil shock and I believe are the only bike shock company that does.
Push now too I believe.
 
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