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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I recently built a 2019 Knolly Warden Carbon with a Lyrik Ultimate 170mm with 44 offset, headtube angle is 66.5
The bike at times feels long but points downhill rides great. I feel coming into tight turns is a challenge. Ovearall works good at local rocky trails, Mammoth and Snow Summit.
I am not a fan of the Lyrik I just can’t get a smooth feeling without making the fork dive, looking to go to a Fox 38 180mm.
Knolly said no worries on going to a 180mm if you like that slack feel. My question is a have an opportunity to buy a 37 or 44 offset.

I believe a 37mm would make the bike a bit shorter than the 44 offset?
Any opinions on the offset when increasing the travel another 10mm?

Thanks
 

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If you are having trouble coming into tight turns, going to a longer fork that stays further up in its travel is going to make it worse. I also think your issues may not be related to your fork. You are already in the steep setting for that bike, so you are only going to slacken it further out and put your weight further back which will make it worse. Your bike is designed around a 553 mm axle to crown fork. Your current fork is 562mm. The Fox 38 is 575mm, so you are going to be raking your bike out 1 degree from stock.

Before you swap forks, I would suggest posting what you have done to tune your Lyrik, which is a good fork. When you say you can't get a smooth feeling without fork dive, it points to a few possible setup issues.

The first is too many tokens so you are running a lower pressure which causes excessive dive. Stock is 1 token with a max of 4. How many do you have? Have you tried removing and running a higher baseline pressure?

The second is the airspring. If you have the debonair, it will tend to run softer in the initial travel than the updated 2021 air spring, but should have good midstroke support (note most prefer the debonair, not the updated airspring).

The third is rebound. Have you played with less rebound to see how it feels? Try a 2-3 clicks less.

Fourth is compression dampening. Have you tried removing some high speed compression dampening and running a slightly higher air spring pressure?

I would go through the above and see what it does, but also take a very careful look at your fit and riding position/technique on the bike. The bike has a short rear (430mm) which requires you to have a forward riding position to get good traction on the front for turns. The short headtube will make this worse if you have to run spacers to get the bars up, as it will shorten the effective length of the front and move your weight back. A slightly longer stem can help with this.

The short is that I do not think the issues you are having are fork related. The Lyrik and Fox forks feel different, but both are very good when setup properly. The differences do not account for the issues you are having and throwing money at a new fork will likely not fix them. I would take a long hard look at the setup and fit before doing anything further. It may be that you and the bike are not a good match for each other and a different frame may be the change you need.
 
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
If you are having trouble coming into tight turns, going to a longer fork that stays further up in its travel is going to make it worse. I also think your issues may not be related to your fork. You are already in the steep setting for that bike, so you are only going to slacken it further out and put your weight further back which will make it worse. Your bike is designed around a 553 mm axle to crown fork. Your current fork is 562mm. The Fox 38 is 575mm, so you are going to be raking your bike out 1 degree from stock.

Before you swap forks, I would suggest posting what you have done to tune your Lyrik, which is a good fork. When you say you can't get a smooth feeling without fork dive, it points to a few possible setup issues.

The first is too many tokens so you are running a lower pressure which causes excessive dive. Stock is 1 token with a max of 4. How many do you have? Have you tried removing and running a higher baseline pressure?

The second is the airspring. If you have the debonair, it will tend to run softer in the initial travel than the updated 2021 air spring, but should have good midstroke support (note most prefer the debonair, not the updated airspring).

The third is rebound. Have you played with less rebound to see how it feels? Try a 2-3 clicks less.

Fourth is compression dampening. Have you tried removing some high speed compression dampening and running a slightly higher air spring pressure?

I would go through the above and see what it does, but also take a very careful look at your fit and riding position/technique on the bike. The bike has a short rear (430mm) which requires you to have a forward riding position to get good traction on the front for turns. The short headtube will make this worse if you have to run spacers to get the bars up, as it will shorten the effective length of the front and move your weight back. A slightly longer stem can help with this.

The short is that I do not think the issues you are having are fork related. The Lyrik and Fox forks feel different, but both are very good when setup properly. The differences do not account for the issues you are having and throwing money at a new fork will likely not fix them. I would take a long hard look at the setup and fit before doing anything further. It may be that you and the bike are not a good match for each other and a different frame may be the change you need.
Thank you for all the insight. Yes I have messed with rebound and HSC along with corresponding air pressure, but haven’t checked tokens. The fork dive was really a result of lowering the settings and air. I rode Summit last week and coincidently My buddy was complaining of not being able to control the HCS and harsh ride of his Lyrik.
Part two is I am more interested in going to a 180mm but wasn’t sure which offset to run on a headtube angle of 66.5, a 37 or 44. I think if if I go 44 I will lengthen my bike more, adding 10mm more travel? Using a 37 will shorten just a tad? I know this is very subtle but my bike originally was set up as 160mm upfront. Spoke with Knolly and they said no worries on going 180mm but will be more of a DH slack
 

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Going back to your original question, the answer is it really doesn’t matter. It makes a barely noticeable difference in back to back testing, 7mm of trail and wheelbase change is very little. A slight preference to 37mm for the shorter wheelbase and shifting your weight oh so slightly forward for better turn in.
 

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I ride a 2020 Warden with 37mm fork but have also ridden it with a 44mm. Honestly I don't see what all the hype is about.

If you are on the edge of a handling issue it could fix or wreck it for you. Otherwise you're only going to notice in a few special conditions. I notice the short offset takes more bar force to keep the bike on line in slow rock rollovers where the front contact patch is rearward.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Going back to your original question, the answer is it really doesn’t matter. It makes a barely noticeable difference in back to back testing, 7mm of trail and wheelbase change is very little. A slight preference to 37mm for the shorter wheelbase and shifting your weight oh so slightly forward for better turn in.
Great and you!
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I ride a 2020 Warden with 37mm fork but have also ridden it with a 44mm. Honestly I don't see what all the hype is about.

If you are on the edge of a handling issue it could fix or wreck it for you. Otherwise you're only going to notice in a few special conditions. I notice the short offset takes more bar force to keep the bike on line in slow rock rollovers where the front contact patch is rearward.
Ok great thank you. I am not a tech weenie more of set it and ride, but I thought the the jump up to a 180mm would be noticeable with different offsets. I did notice the jump from 160 (guessing the offset was low) to my 170 with 46 offset. Felt longer but I feel like I can plow through bumpy rutty stuff.
 

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I had a Warden 2/LT and I think that you would feel more of a difference jumping up in fork travel than with offset.

Some people seem really sensitive to offset but I'm not one of them so after a few minutes it seems like my body just adjusts and I don't really think about it after that.

The Warden does ride a little bit differently than other bikes so that could be a factor as well as far as how it feels going through turns but it would depend on what you are coming to the Warden from.

I ran my Warden at 170mm (Ohlins RFX36 EVO and Formula Selva S) and that was a pretty good setup for me but that depends on your terrain, how much up vs down you are doing, and all that sort of a thing along with fork preferences.

Are you sure that you are in neutral on the shock position (forward mounting hole)?
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I had a Warden 2/LT and I think that you would feel more of a difference jumping up in fork travel than with offset.

Some people seem really sensitive to offset but I'm not one of them so after a few minutes it seems like my body just adjusts and I don't really think about it after that.

The Warden does ride a little bit differently than other bikes so that could be a factor as well as far as how it feels going through turns but it would depend on what you are coming to the Warden from.

I ran my Warden at 170mm (Ohlins RFX36 EVO and Formula Selva S) and that was a pretty good setup for me but that depends on your terrain, how much up vs down you are doing, and all that sort of a thing along with fork preferences.

Are you sure that you are in neutral on the shock position (forward mounting hole)?
Yeah I agree that people get hung up on offset. The only reason I really brought it up was that I was going from a 170 MM to a 180 I just want to make sure that I should be using the right offset since I’m going with more travel which ultimately will give me more slack.
Honestly I never ride my rear shock in the neutral position I’m always in slack whether it’s my cane creek coil or my fox float 2

Living in Southern California I have to pedal uphill foremost my winter rides or ride up sky Park, in the summer I try to get over to snow summit chair lifts as much as I can
 

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Yah, if you cannot justify the $130/mm offset reduction as at least a head and shoulders improvement, real or imaginary, it would really suck.
 
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