[Davide]

For the 160lb racers this group is meant for....this is not their concern.

There has never really been any rider weight limit on XTR, since it was first introduced back in 1985.

This is a group that will be on the top of the line $7,000-10000 range bikes. People will use the cross country XTR to race with it, they will use the enduro XTR to race with it, but most people will buy XTR for its performance and light weight and never see a starting line ...

 

[kosmo]

I, for one, am looking forward to 12spd being semi-affordable (XT). SRAM can go pound sand with their prices.

Agree!

 

[kosmo]

I run DT Swiss hubs, but I'm going to keep using X01 Eagle cassettes with this new XTR 12 shifter and soon-to-follow XT rear derailleur. All my 11sp bikes have SRAM X01 10-42 cassettes with XTR triggers and SLX derailleurs (after years of XTR derailleurs....no difference other than 45 grams). I like Eagle, but my XTR 11 speed with its multi-shift lever is hands-down the favorite.

Same plan, but......is anybody sure that the cog spacing is identical between Shimano and SRAM. It always has been, but who knows? I've seen no direct mention of this.

 

[Jayem]

XD requires an oddball cassette design because the locating features and threads are way down towards the base. It can be difficult to torque correctly and it leaves a bearing sticking half out the end. So if you are SRAM with a unique way of milling uber-expensive cassettes and you want to make sure Shimano can't use your "open" design without jumping through hoops, it's great. But it was never going to work for Shimano, and the new Shimano design is more adaptable to various methods of manufacturing a cassette and requires a very basic lockring similar to what everybody but SRAM has been using for decades.

You probably run your brakes harder than me, I have sets of very old Shimano brakes that still work but I just upgraded to newer ones anyway. I have tossed Avid/SRAM brakes in the trash out of annoyance but the only non-functional Shimano caliper I have was bought and taken apart to be used as a buck for brake mount mods. I know SRAM has upped their game but I have had no reason to try them.

Well of course the threads and splines are way towards the base, that's because it's a superior design. It doesn't try to apply torque over a long lever arm like shimano (which results in the scoring problem). To boot, it's lighter. Yes, SRAM figured out how to CNC lightweight cassettes out of steel, but we were taking about the XD driver specifically. It's better, that's all there is too it. It's not an oddball driver/ cassette design anymore when you can buy several different manufacturers cassettes, like you can now. Wake up and smell the coffee. XD was a huge improvement over the traditional cassette interface.

Did I mention SRAM brakes? No, just the flaws of shimano, they weep fluid if you let them set for a period of time and eventually they give out, average for me is about 2-3 yrs, that would be fine and dandy if they actually sold seal kits. I've warrantied xtr, had xt give out too.

 

[Schulze]

There has never been any rider weight limit on XTR, since it was first introduced back in 1985.

This is a group that will be on the top of the line $7,000-10000 range bikes. People will use the cross country XTR to race with it, they will use the enduro XTR to race with it, but most people will buy XTR for its performance and light weight and never see a starting line ...

And if they engineered it for the top .1% of riders it wouldn't be light enough for anyone to buy.

 

[TwoTone]

Did I mention SRAM brakes? No, just the flaws of shimano, they weep fluid if you let them set for a period of time and eventually they give out, average for me is about 2-3 yrs, that would be fine and dandy if they actually sold seal kits. I've warrantied xtr, had xt give out too.

Huge generalization based on your experience. Based on my experience Shimano brakes are flawless. Still have a pair of 4 Pot XTs from 2000 that have never been bled and still work as well as the day I put them on.

 

[Velodonata]

Well of course the threads and splines are way towards the base, that's because it's a superior design. It doesn't try to apply torque over a long lever arm like shimano (which results in the scoring problem). To boot, it's lighter. Yes, SRAM figured out how to CNC lightweight cassettes out of steel, but we were taking about the XD driver specifically. It's better, that's all there is too it. It's not an oddball driver/ cassette design anymore when you can buy several different manufacturers cassettes, like you can now. Wake up and smell the coffee. XD was a huge improvement over the traditional cassette interface.

Did I mention SRAM brakes? No, just the flaws of shimano, they weep fluid if you let them set for a period of time and eventually they give out, average for me is about 2-3 yrs, that would be fine and dandy if they actually sold seal kits. I've warrantied xtr, had xt give out too.

I hate to break this to you, but all the non-Sram XD cassettes on the market are compromised designs due to the XD driver. And it is not XD that makes SRAM cassettes good. I guarantee you that if there had been an open choice between XD or Micro-Spline, there would be zero takers for XD. The e*thirteen XD cassette is a freakshow that took multiple versions to get right, and Garbaruk has changed theirs to use a second lockring. The external locking threads requiring some sort of deep locking sleeve or other gimmick is far from the elegant simplicity of Shimano's freehubs. I don't know where you are trying to go with your talk of torque and lever arms, it's not going to score any points for XD either. Even the SRAM XD cassettes mount finicky compared to any Shimano cassette, nobody ever wondered if their XTR cassette was torqued correctly or ruined their cassette with a damaged sleeve. XD was OK when there was no other choice, but it's got nothing to offer over Micro-Spline going forward. I just hope Shimano doesn't keep it locked down.

I don't know what to say about your brake problems, I'll say it again, I have a workshop full of Shimano brakes of various vintages and zero failures. I have put them on several friends bikes over the years with no complaints, either.

 

[Bay1]

Wouldn’t it be cool if the new XT comes out with an 12 speed 11-51 cassette, that fits on the old hubs! so those who wish to upgrade there old drivetrains can...
And hopefully Shimano releases a NEW 11 speed Hyperglide cassette 11-45, for our existing Shimano 11 speed drivetrains.

Personally I perfer Shimano
I’ve never had much luck with SRAM, but obviously many do tho. Both the X01 12x and 11x systems have given me trouble, but the cheeper XTR 1x11 has been perfect, (except for when running it with the X01 cassette it wouldn’t shift as sweet. But it was very good)

This xtr is pretty much just for new build top of the line bikes ah.

The bike industry is so waistfull.
If the demand for a 10 tooth cog was so great, Surely the engineers at Shimano could have made a cheep light cassette for the XD free hub.

My DT 240s are redundant anyhow as they are only 135. And bike frames don’t use that standard anymore 🤔

 

[kosmo]

Wouldn't it be cool if the new XT comes out with an 12 speed 11-51 cassette, that fits on the old hubs! so those who wish to upgrade there old drivetrains can..

Ha! I just posted this thought on another forum. If XT requires Shimano or DT hubs, it's doomed, IMO, so 11-51 FTW!

 

[Jayem]

I hate to break this to you, but all the non-Sram XD cassettes on the market are compromised designs due to the XD driver. And it is not XD that makes SRAM cassettes good. I guarantee you that if there had been an open choice between XD or Micro-Spline, there would be zero takers for XD. The e*thirteen XD cassette is a freakshow that took multiple versions to get right, and Garbaruk has changed theirs to use a second lockring. The external locking threads requiring some sort of deep locking sleeve or other gimmick is far from the elegant simplicity of Shimano's freehubs. I don't know where you are trying to go with your talk of torque and lever arms, it's not going to score any points for XD either. Even the SRAM XD cassettes mount finicky compared to any Shimano cassette, nobody ever wondered if their XTR cassette was torqued correctly or ruined their cassette with a damaged sleeve. XD was OK when there was no other choice, but it's got nothing to offer over Micro-Spline going forward. I just hope Shimano doesn't keep it locked down.

I don't know what to say about your brake problems, I'll say it again, I have a workshop full of Shimano brakes of various vintages and zero failures. I have put them on several friends bikes over the years with no complaints, either.

Ok, so to summarize your statement:

You don't like E13 cassettes.

You don't understand why the shimano-compatible cassette body gets heavily scored on the outside edge (away from the center).

You have trouble installing parts.

All you want to know about shimano brakes can be found here:

Frankenbrakes and brake improvement discussion | Ridemonkey Forums

 

[Jayem]

Huge generalization based on your experience. Based on my experience Shimano brakes are flawless. Still have a pair of 4 Pot XTs from 2000 that have never been bled and still work as well as the day I put them on.

The 4-pots were a totally different brake and arguably better than the more recent stuff that is doomed to failure.

I spoke with the shimano rep about this at my last race, he basically agreed with me about the terminal failure and stated that due to how they are mass-produced, they aren't interested in putting out any seal kits. That means you can't do a "refresh" after a season or two, to prevent an untimely failure. That is downright dangerous.

 

[TurboKoo]

Same plan, but......is anybody sure that the cog spacing is identical between Shimano and SRAM. It always has been, but who knows? I've seen no direct mention of this.

SRAM has 3,65mm spacing and new XTR uses 3,5mm spacing so no compatibility.

 

[uzurpator]

SRAM has 3,65mm spacing and new XTR uses 3,5mm spacing so no compatibility.

I find this suspect.

We already know that the 10-45 11 speed version is cross compatible with 12 speed and is, apparently, compatible with current 11 speed stuff. The 11 and 12 speed SRAM gear is cross compatible as well. It is quite certain that the 12 speed should be cross compatible between both brands.

And even if formally it isn't, the spacing is so goddamn close, that it is going to work none-theless.

 

[uzurpator]

Ok, so to summarize your statement:

You don't like E13 cassettes.

You don't understand why the shimano-compatible cassette body gets heavily scored on the outside edge (away from the center).

He is right tho, on the XD driver. Its only strength is being first to market, other then that the "micro-spline" is a better design if we desire to get the sub-11 top cog.

How much of a failure XD really is is best exemplified by the fact, that it is married to the monolithic cassette design of the XX1 and even SRAM failed to trickle it down to the bottomest equipment tiers. This new 'microspline' can be easily adopted even to a 'stack-of-stamped-cogs' cassettes that abound low end groups.

 

[Jan]

The 11 and 12 speed SRAM gear is cross compatible as well.

Don't think so. Maybe it will work, but the spacing is not the same. https://sram.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/sections/115000545854-SRAM-Eagle-

 

[Velodonata]

Ok, so to summarize your statement:

You don't like E13 cassettes.

You don't understand why the shimano-compatible cassette body gets heavily scored on the outside edge (away from the center).

You have trouble installing parts.

All you want to know about shimano brakes can be found here:

Frankenbrakes and brake improvement discussion | Ridemonkey Forums

Nice try guy. If you don't have a rebuttal with any real points to make, just say so or let it go.

I don't care about e*thirteen cassettes other than as a curious observer, I don't use them and have yet had no desire to, I think it is fine that they are offering some alternative cassettes for people that do need them. But it's pretty obvious that making XD work has been a bit of a trial for them, and it is all because of the fundamental weakness of the XD design. I am a Garbaruk customer and they make their cassettes in a similar fashion to SRAM, machined from a steel billet. They make versions for both Shimano and XD freehubs. The Shimano ones are cheaper and lighter for otherwise very similar 11 speed cassettes, and much simpler to install. All because of the quirks of XD. SRAM's own cassettes could be made simpler, cheaper and lighter for Micro-Spline, maybe they should talk to Shimano about that?

Just because you can't properly describe technical issues doesn't mean I can't understand them. Traditional cassette bodies are a decades old technology and no Shimano freehub body has ever suffered notching from a cog. If aftermarket hubs use aluminum to save weight and it doesn't withstand the individual cassette cogs, that isn't Shimano's fault. I don't choose hubs with vulnerable bodies, but the ones I have worked on are still serviceable, it is just a little more work to get the cassette off and you have to dress the notches a bit. It's a calculated compromise for weight savings, like many things on a bike. The new design is an evolution of the old and Shimano chose to update the splines to a design that works better using aluminum. That is a good thing, it's how the process is supposed to work.

No worries, I don't have any trouble installing these parts. But I see and have heard many complaints about XD cassette installs. There are plenty in the forums. They are finicky to install and plenty of amatuer home mechanics and even some bike shop guys have had issues with XD. The cost for these mistakes can be high indeed. XD won't get a pass any more for being the only game in town.

Thanks for the link, I'm good. I'll be sure to find somebody that doesn't have so much trouble with them if I need help with any of my Shimano brakes that never seem to give me any trouble. Knock on wood!

 

[arnea]

Is the 11 speed cassette just 12 speed cassette with largest cog removed to save weight? And not compatible with old 11 speed system?

Anyway it was impressive work from Shimano - I think they really covered all needs of racers, even the integrated dropper lever.

 

[Davide]

If it is as good as it looks, is should be all around significantly better than Eagle. And Shimano is one of those manufacturers whose products generally live up to their appearances. They had enough time to get it right, and they really needed to deliver.

One thing I did not notice at first is the spacing of the cassette. Sram 1050 just added a 50 cog to the original 1042, obtaining a rather odd spacing. Starting from 28 it gets 4-4-6-8 teeth increments:

10 12 14 16 18 21 24 28 32 36 42 50

compare with Shimano that at the top has smooth 5-6-6-6 increments:

10 12 14 16 18 21 24 28 33 39 45 51

The 1045 is even smoother at 4-4-4-5

10 12 14 16 18 21 24 28 32 36 40 45

 

[Whambat]

I'm in the camp the biggest drawback of this XTR is the hub driver. And Shimano pretty much lied about not being able to use XD. Sram has made the XD open for all to use without fee. It's about Shimano just not wanting to use anything from Sram. It would be better if they just said we came out with micro spline because we think it is better these reasons. If Shimano wants this group to do well, they need to offer up micro spline to everyone. It just feels like Shimano is going back to their old dick moves to third party companies from back in the 90's.

Since my GX Eagle generally works better than my XT 1x11 between my two bikes, and it costs less on OEM bikes, I just can't see even a XT level one bringing me back to the Shimano fold. The only downside is the extra cost of the cassette, but after having Shimano cassettes dig into and trash AL hub bodies for years, I'm Ok with an extra minimal cost. Besides, the move to one piece cassettes reduces the inevitable creaking I'd get from Shimano multi piece cassettes.

That said there is a lot of awesomeness to this group. The new brakes, the pedals, the crank, the dropper remote, the new derailleurs, all look great. Some of it may end up on my bike someday, just not the shifting bits unless it plays well with any XD cassettes.

I think this article has some of the best fact checking:
https://nsmb.com/articles/2019-shimano-xtr-9100-10-51-12spd-here/

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[GuitsBoy]

I'm in the camp the biggest drawback of this XTR is the hub driver. And Shimano pretty much lied about not being able to use XD. Sram has made the XD open for all to use without fee.

This is only true for hub manufacturers. It encourages hub makers to offer xD drivers so that SRAM can sell more groupsets. They still hold their patent on the cassette side, and charge pretty steep licensing fees for anyone who wants to produce a cassette that interfaces with XD. Thats where they get you. So from Shimano's point of view, while they could freely produce hubs with an XD driver, they would still have to pay a license fee to produce cassettes. They were better off designing their own freehub from a financial stance.