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Discussion Starter #1
Hi,

I am trying to build up an NS Surge 2 frame, and I was wondering if frames with 135 mm rear dropouts can accommodate a 142mm hub.

Thanks
 

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Nope.

As the number suggests, 142mm is 7mm wider than the dropouts on your frame. Also the Surge is 135x10mm, so you have to have either normal quick release or 10mm bolt up, 142x12mm simply won't fit.

If it's a wheel you've already got, check with the manufacturer to see if they sell adapters or a different width axle. Otherwise buy a 135mm quick release rear hub.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Thanks for the response fix the spade.

I was planning on building the wheel set, so now I'm looking at going with the 135x12mm hope hubs with the sun ringle 12-10 step down thru bolt. Do you think there's much benefit to the 12 mm bolt over a 135x10mm hub and a 10mm thru bolt? I guess the difference is the 18 dollars for the axle, but I wouldn't mind too much if it was worth it. Thanks again for the advice, it's much appreciated.

cheers
 

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On a hardtail there's no benefit to a 12mm hub and step down axle, you're better off with a 10mm hub and thru-bolt.

On a fs bike 12mm makes sense as the axle screws directly into the frame, it joins the ends of the swing arm more securely. Which is good on a swingarm that's not directly attached to the frame and may not be triangulated at all. On a hardtail it makes no difference as the stays are welded to the frame directly, there's not really any chance for flex in that arrangement.

Also the Surge is a really stiff frame to begin with!
 

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Discussion Starter #5
That bit about the full suspension cleared things up a lot. It makes sense that a hard tail doesn't need that, lol.

Thanks Again!
 

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If you can machine 3.5mm off each end of the hub axle, it will fit perfectly. The chainline is the same. A 142mm axle is 3.5mm longer to step into the 142mm dropout which has a 3.5mm deep recess. You can also sleeve the 12mm axle to use a 10mm thru-axle.

It is easier to just start with the right hub, but if you already have the 142 hub, it is possible to use it.
 

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Hmm...
So, if i'll buy 12x142mm rear hub i can use my metal workshop and lathes\milling machines to shorten each side for 3.5mm? And hub will fit into 135mm dropouts?
 

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Hmm...
So, if i'll buy 12x142mm rear hub i can use my metal workshop and lathes\milling machines to shorten each side for 3.5mm? And hub will fit into 135mm dropouts?
Why would you want to buy a 142mm hub only to machine it down to 135mm, making it permanently a 135 hub? That would simply defeat the purpose of buying a 142 hub.
 

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Well, i'm not shure...
Probably the better way for me - is to buy 10x135mm thru-axle hub...
I just wanted for more stiff axle on my hardtail, which have 135mm dropouts...
 

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Is this an issue of perceived need because it is available or because you are having some sort of issue with the 135mm. By this I mean, breaking your axles, its flexing back there, etc.

General comment, stiffness in this area can be confused with spokes not tensioned sufficiently giving rim flex. The frame may be constructed a bit light in the BB area giving the feeling the rear end is moving around a bit. In other words, there are some variables, some you can fix and others you can't.

Eric
 

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Is this an issue of perceived need because it is available or because you are having some sort of issue with the 135mm. By this I mean, breaking your axles, its flexing back there, etc.

General comment, stiffness in this area can be confused with spokes not tensioned sufficiently giving rim flex. The frame may be constructed a bit light in the BB area giving the feeling the rear end is moving around a bit. In other words, there are some variables, some you can fix and others you can't.

Eric
Agreed. Most hardtail frames gain nothing by changing the axle type or the way it is secured.
 

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The cat's name is jake
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Sure they do. They gain ease of operation, and wheel position repeatability. Furthermore, I used to break QR standard Shimano axles regularly. I have never in my life broken either a 10mm through axle, nor a 12mm Maxle, despite having gained 50 lbs, and thrown myself off larger and larger drops.

Here's what you need ;)

 

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Sure they do. They gain ease of operation, and wheel position repeatability. Furthermore, I used to break QR standard Shimano axles regularly. I have never in my life broken either a 10mm through axle, nor a 12mm Maxle, despite having gained 50 lbs, and thrown myself off larger and larger drops.

Here's what you need ;)

If you can not quickly and easily get the wheel in the same position with vertical dropouts and a QR hub you have bigger issues than bikes.

Suggesting dropouts intended use by frame builders for an existing unknown hardtail frame is just silly.
 

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The cat's name is jake
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Actually, wheel repeatability is not as straightforward as you might think. Very often, dropout slots are oversized, or have been filed for proper wheel alignment under static conditions. This can leave room for a variety of wheel positions when the QR is tightened. Additionally, when dropouts are filed for wheel alignment, it sometimes means that when you stomp on the pedals, the wheel shifts in the dropout slot and cocks the wheel. I know this from extensive personal experience as a professional frame builder and a rider.

A proper 12mm Maxle setup gives very accurate, repeatable wheel position because the bore (not a sloppy fitting slot) aligns the wheel in a VERY limited number of possible axial/angular locations. Now, if you don't give a hoot about where your wheel sits, that's fine, but some people do care very much about such things.

Your point about my suggesting a different dropout is well taken - point Don - though keep in mind this question was posted in the "frame building" section of the forum.

Regarding one axle type vs. another not offering any benefits on hardtails is simply wrong - I'm guessing it was an offhand statement made without really thinking things through.
 

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Hey, neat drop-outs BungedUP. Probably not practical for the O/R in this instance.

We don't know what the specific issue is for Shadow Fox, so my Question was to focus on his actual need where he is at right now. Then maybe a suitable solution could be forth-coming. It maybe as simple as having a set of wheels that need a home and they don't fit the way his bike is set-up - to serious breakage of axles as a jump-biker, we don't have enough info....

Eric
 

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The cat's name is jake
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Hi Eric,

Well said, and good point. I more reacted to Don's statement that hardtail bikes don't benefit from different styles of axles. For many instances, the standard QR is adequate, true enough.

Regarding the OP's specific question, really his second question, which was if there was any benefit of standard 10mm vs 10mm through bolt vs 12 mm step down through axle, here's my thoughts:

On a street/DJ bike like the NS, I'd skip the standard QR personally. The amount of pressure that the QR itself can apply is limited, due to it's tiny cross section (5mm nominal diameter, minor thread diameter even smaller still). It's the pressure that the QR can generate against the sides of the hub/frame interface that hold it in place. Compare that with a 10mm through bolt. The cross sectional area of the through bolt is over 4 times larger than the QR skewer (78mm^2 vs 19mm^2). The step down 12-10mm through axle does not gain any cross sectional area over the 10mm through bolt. If I were looking for the most practical solution for the NS frame, it would be a 135 hub with the 10mm through bolt - max strength, minimum cost.

Furthermore, with the new Hope Pro 2 hubs, I believe it uses the same actual hub axle (17mm dia) for all configurations, so axle strength itself isn't really too much of an issue, though the 12-10 step down theoretically would protect the axle from compressing/buckling in the center, and failing through such a catostrophic event.
 

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The cat's name is jake
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Oh hell, I just saw the OP was months ago. Alright, forget it! I knew there was a reason I try not to post too much on forums...

:)
 

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Oh hell, I just saw the OP was months ago. Alright, forget it! I knew there was a reason I try not to post too much on forums... :)
Oh, not to worry;

Noobs are given latitude. :ihih:

When you do suffer such momentary fits of boredom, it is always enlightening, my friend.
 

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Hey BungedUP, don't feel discouraged. We all can do it.

I like your style of calculating risk, and thinking it through. I guess making those extra long 5 riders keeps you thinking sharp.

Just for the record, my own bike is a gravel grinder, and I use Hope hubs in Q/R format, and use hollow CR-MO Q/R's. Hope that doesn't upset too much......

Welcome, we're Psycling Mad here.

Eric
 

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The cat's name is jake
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Noobs are given latitude. :ihih:
John, you smug SOB! ;) I had a little chuckle over that.

Thanks Eric,
Heh, I can probably use the discouragement - it makes for some instant humility. I'll get a fat head to go with my fat gut otherwise!

All that I've said previously aside, I've had QR hubs last just fine for lots of things. It's when I see someone slapping them on a street/DJ bike that I think that they could do better, especially if they are putting together some new wheels. People doing aggressive disciplines like freestyle BMX, slopestyle, DJ, street, etc. can put the hurt down on a pair of hubs (as I'm sure everyone here knows).
 
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