REVIEWS DEALS BIKESHOPS TRAILS

10s

3981 Views 40 Replies 15 Participants Last post by josliver, Sep 30, 2009

nino

Discussion Starter · Jun 28, 2009 (Edited)

3

I finally found the time to convert my Scale to 10s. I was looking around at first to get my hands on some real 10s shifters but finally thought i give the plastic-twisters i had a go.
So far so good - the closer ratios can be felt immediately. I even think about getting a 40t chainring up front instead of the 42 i have now to make the gaps even narrower. I really appreciate the closer spread gears. That's how i have them on my roadbike as well. Makes you keep your cadence and you have less up and downs in your heartrate....a more constant ride.

It was quite some time i didn't use my V-Brake Scale and i was realy amazed at the featherweight feel. It accelerates like crazy and just some riding around the block feels like you are sitting on a rocketship.i'm curious to see how i like it out on the trails though. I haven't ridden it yet with those skinny Furious Freds. I got accustomed to the fat RaceKings and the new SID lately...we will see how it does now using 10s, old SID and skinny tires

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Kwik

· #2 · Jun 28, 2009

Hey Nino,

could you tell us some more about the 10speed shifter you use.

shifting quality,brand, weight?

Thanks

Broccoli

· #3 · Jun 28, 2009

I would MUCH rather convert to 8sp.

On my AM bike, I would be perfectly happy with a broad range 7 speed.

But I guess that is the case where "new" and "more" sells.

nino

Discussion Starter · #4 · Jun 28, 2009

Kwik said:
Hey Nino,

could you tell us some more about the 10speed shifter you use.

shifting quality,brand, weight?

Thanks

here's some info on the shifter:
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=525840

fos'l

· #5 · Jun 28, 2009

Nino, thanks for the report; finally, I've exhausted the 8s and most of the 9s. Can't wait to try the 10. New and better is good.

COLINx86

· #6 · Jun 29, 2009

Curmy said:
I would MUCH rather convert to 8sp.

On my AM bike, I would be perfectly happy with a broad range 7 speed.

But I guess that is the case where "new" and "more" sells.

Yeah but you can't keep your cadence as well with 8 speed unless you got like an 11-27 or something.

Broccoli

· #7 · Jun 29, 2009

COLINx86 said:
Yeah but you can't keep your cadence as well with 8 speed unless you got like an 11-27 or something.

I actually do ride 12-27 on my light bike, and 8 speed will be good enough. It used to be good enough. And I do not care about precise cadence on my AM bike, I pretty much use 4 or 5 ratios overall..

Not to take this thread in a wrong direction, but this whole 10 speed "upgrade" thing is getting me worried.

nino

Discussion Starter · #8 · Jun 29, 2009

Curmy said:
but this whole 10 speed "upgrade" thing is getting me worried.

It is no worry for the "race-guys" out there as SRAM is now coimng with 10s and on roadbikes 10s is long standard and Campa now even went to 11s with great success.

Broccoli

· #9 · Jun 29, 2009

nino said:
It is no worry for the "race-guys" out there as SRAM is now coimng with 10s and on roadbikes 10s is long standard and Campa now even went to 11s with great success.

Oh, I am not worried that it will or will not work, technically it will. But there was no advantage in switching from 8 to 9 for trail bikes. Just more unnecessary shifting as you can not maintain perfect cadence on a rough trail anyway. It will be harder to mix and match parts between groups.

nino

Discussion Starter · #10 · Jun 29, 2009

well...

Curmy said:
Oh, I am not worried that it will or will not work, technically it will. But there was no advantage in switching from 8 to 9 for trail bikes. Just more unnecessary shifting as you can not maintain perfect cadence on a rough trail anyway. It will be harder to mix and match parts between groups.

I have no idea what your trails look like but over here we have mountains with hour-long climbs. That's where a thight spaced drivetrain is exactly what you need.
Also such a drivetrain allows you to find the exact gear for your power so in the end you ride faster. Not everyone has trails with CONSTANT up and down.

You sure can do all trails or all riding with a Sturmy-Archer 3 speed as well. With a 1st low enough for steep climbs and a 3rd fast enough for fast downhills and a middle gear for all the rest...Who do you think will be faster in the end: the guy using less or more gears

Broccoli

· #11 · Jun 29, 2009

nino said:
I have no idea what your trails look like but over here we have mountains with hour-long climbs. That's where a thight spaced drivetrain is exactly what you need.
Also such a drivetrain allows you to find the exact gear for your power so in the end you ride faster. Not everyone has trails with CONSTANT up and down.

Difference in spacing between 8sp ad 9sp was almost non-existent as they also went for wider overall ratio. Difference in spacing between 10 speed and 9 speed is minor. I run 12-27 on a light bike, exactly for the reason that I can climb more efficiently, which is the same difference between gears that what you get with a wider 10sp. So the cadence factor from switching from 3x9 to 2x10, especially with those new 11-36 cassettes does not seem to be the a major factor. Less front shifts is nice, but even now it can be achieved if you just accept a slightly narrower overall gearing of a 2x9.

I am sure there are slight benefits to racers - but what is the fraction of people who can get those benefits?

On the rougher trails around here: not much chance to be constantly fiddling with a perfect gear, and when you adjust it is most often by several cogs - extra cog just gives you more hassle. So I run 11-34 with 24/36, and I would hate to need an extra shift to make.

nino said:
Who do you think will be faster in the end: the guy using less or more gears

I am not out to race the clock every time I am out, and I bet that is true for the vast majority of users. When I did race, that was for 24+ hours multisport, and my primary concern was reliability was riding at night in the woods.

The faster guy in the end would be the one without any breakdowns.

And just looking at times for single speed riders - it is obvious it is more about the engine, not the transmission.

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Broccoli

· #12 · Jun 30, 2009

Maxrep said:
Curmy,
from your posts, it is obvious that you lack the experience to understand the value of 9spd or 10spd cassettes and their relation to a riders ability to maintain ideal wattage at stable rpm's. These advances represent real progress.

Yes, I do lack experience in using 10sp for mountain biking. I assume you have it in oodles - I wonder what equipment have you used all those years.

If you want to argue that a 3x9 drivetrain with 12-27 cassette has a noticeably smaller selection of gears and cadences then a 2x10 with a 10 spd 11-32 - I invite you to back up your smug assertions with numbers. I am listening.

I also assert that for the vast majority of mountain bikers ability to maintain "ideal wattage at a stable rpm" is not important or possible for normal riding condition. If you think otherwise, I think you lack experience. So you can stuff your condescending remarks where sun does not shine.

nino

Discussion Starter · #13 · Jun 30, 2009

Curmy said:
Yes, I do lack experience in using 10sp for mountain biking. I assume you have it in oodles - I wonder what equipment have you used all those years.

If you want to argue that a 3x9 drivetrain with 12-27 cassette has a noticeably smaller selection of gears and cadences then a 2x10 with a 10 spd 11-32 - I invite you to back up your smug assertions with numbers. I am listening.

I also assert that for the vast majority of mountain bikers ability to maintain "ideal wattage at a stable rpm" is not important or possible for normal riding condition. If you think otherwise, I think you lack experience. So you can stuff your condescending remarks where sun does not shine.

Curmy,
please....

I used 3x9 with 12-27 for several years and this is what makes you change gears A LOT especially on the front where we all know shifts aren't as smooth as on the rear.

Just accept that there is a rather big community who will love the new offerings with 2x9 and 10s in the back. There's A LOT less shifts in the front compared to 3x9 let alone when compared to your 3x9/12-27 setup. That's a VAST difference which you can't compare one with another.

So please stay out of this thread if you really can't stand more than 8 gears-thanks!

Broccoli

· #14 · Jun 30, 2009

nino said:
I used 3x9 with 12-27 for several years and this is what makes you change gears A LOT especially on the front where we all know shifts aren't as smooth as on the rear.

Sure it does. But the argument was that the new tighter gear ratios are available, and if you use 11-32 10sp that is just not the case compared with 3x9 and 12-27.

nino said:
Just accept that there is a rather big community who will love the new offerings with 2x9 and 10s in the back.

Sure they will. Just like there is an even bigger community who would not.

nino said:
There's A LOT less shifts in the front compared to 3x9 let alone when compared to your 3x9/12-27 setup. That's a VAST difference which you can't compare one with another.

I would not say its a LOT, given that just one gear out of ten that is potentially missing, but that's certainly a benefit. Though my XTR front shifts never bothered me at all. "VAST" is clearly an exaggeration. Even for professional racers, who are very few among us, I did not notice that 2x10 riders are suddenly cleaning the field. For the rest of us, it is even less "VAST".

If you read what I wrote - I am just not excited about this new development and I would bet this opinion is shared my great many users.

nino said:
So please stay out of this thread if you really can't stand more than 8 gears-thanks!

If you can not stand a critical view of your opinion you should not post, should not you?

Do not worry, nobody will cut into your 10sp cassette sales.

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nino

Discussion Starter · #15 · Jun 30, 2009

As D8 you seem to specialize in posting in threads without any info/content regarding the topic itself. Too bad.

Sometimes a somewhat open mind would help to go through life....it seems you are not this kind of a guy. Too bad as especially in the WW-board new things come up here and there and that's definitely the wrong place for old-school , traditional guys to hang around and leave bad comments. Maybe time to leave the field to those interested, don't you think?

I was a hardcore V-Brake believer, i am still, but i too have a disc-equiped bike and have to admit it isn't as bad...just a bit too heavy

But you can't neglect the benefits of some new offerings either. Time passes, things evolve and it seems at least the racers are jumping big onto the 2x9 bandwagon ( and now 2x10).Maybe time to take a closer look at the pro-racers bike once in a while...

Broccoli

· #16 · Jun 30, 2009 (Edited)

nino said:
As D8 you seem to specialize in posting in threads without any info/content regarding the topic itself. Too bad.

Sometimes a somewhat open mind would help to go through life....it seems you are not this kind of a guy. Too bad as especially in the WW-board new things come up here and there and that's definitely the wrong place for old-school , traditional guys to hang around and leave bad comments. Maybe time to leave the field to those interested, don't you think?

I was a hardcore V-Brake believer, i am still, but i too have a disc-equiped bike and have to admit it isn't as bad...just a bit too heavy But you can't neglect the benefits of some new offerings either. Time passes, things evolve and it seems at least the racers are jumping big onto the 2x9 bandwagon ( and now 2x10).Maybe time to take a closer look at the pro-racers bike once in a while...

Yeah, when you can not address an argument, some smug and condescending are a common crutch - but not a good answer.

Have it ever occurred to you that you are not always right?

I sure know enough about what gearing I use to have a qualified opinion on the subject. If it differs from yours, it is not my problem.

P.S. I think you are just excited at the opportunity to peddle more wares. Maybe time for you to leave the field for those with no vested interest and with experience not limited to one narrow pro-racing application?

Broccoli

· #17 · Jun 30, 2009 (Edited)

Maxrep said:
Curmy, you really have nothing to say here, let it go.

Thank you, but I will decide for myself if I want or have anything to say. Let it go.

Maxrep said:
The combination of tight cog ratios and gripshift, allow me to grab or drop one tooth, two teeth, or 5 teeth with the flick of a wrist, in reacting to angle changes in the terrain.

Thank you Captain Obvious. But just like quite many people do not care about gripshift, many people do not care about tight gear ratios.

Maxrep said:
As Nino pointed out, extra gears in the rear many times allow the rider to avoid the more laborious chore of changing rings up front. More rear cogs means you can capably grab hold of more cogs in the rear while staying in one particular front ring.

Not having to change the front chairing is the only benefit, and yes it is a big benefit - and it is not what you had been so elaborately explaining before. There are no new gears available in 2x10. So all your blabbering about cadence was not relevant.

P.S. Sorry I was not posing for the camera during a great many 24h+ adventure races I have finished solo. I guess that makes me unqualified to opine about bike gearing.

nino

Discussion Starter · #18 · Jun 30, 2009

Curmy said:
Yeah, when you can not address an argument, some smug and condescending are a common crutch - but not a good answer.

Have it ever occurred to you that you are not always right?

I sure know enough about what gearing I use to have a qualified opinion on the subject. If it differs from yours, it is not my problem.

P.S. I think you are just excited at the opportunity to peddle more wares. Maybe time for you to leave the field for those with no vested interest and with experience not limited to one narrow pro-racing application?

again-nothing relevant regarding the topic!
you have made your statement-it can be read above...so be it.

For the rest of us let's go on with the topic on 10s drivetrains and its benefits:thumbsup: :thumbsup: SRAM has listened to it's sponsored racers and we now can share their setups. I personally do aprreciate that. I also copied the 27/42 setup the Swisspower team is using and it really serves me well. paired to the 10s cassettes this is just the ultimate for me. I have racer buddies who just converted to 2x9 and they too love it. now with 10s the gearing gets even better. 10 USEABLE gears per chainring.....not having to change the front chainring every so often, beeing able to stay in ONE ring up front and still keep your cadence...oh-and it also saves weight!

I experienced many,many times while riding with my buddies that as soon as they change to a smaller chainring up front their speed drops dramatically. That's the moment their momentum is gone.That's when i gain a lot compared to them.

By the way - who is talking about any sales?? I don't . I just show my new setup and try to explain how it performs FOR ME.

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fos'l

· #19 · Jun 30, 2009

I'm relatively new to this site, but isn't there a method for getting rid of the drivel that a few negative types expectorate? I would suggest that Nino et al neither read these posts (which I'm doing from now on) nor respond to them. Nino et al; if you don't respond to them, they might eventually go away and find another hobby.

Broccoli

· #20 · Jun 30, 2009

nino said:
By the way - who is talking about any sales?? I don't . I just show my new setup and try to explain how it performs FOR ME.

Yes, and I have commented about MY opinion on this subject, which I assumed is the purpose of a forum. My apologies for not being a cheerleader, but I do not think that smug condescending was warranted. I am not a pro racer, but I did ride in adventure races for many years, and recreationally for even longer, so I allow myself an opinion.

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