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10 Speed Shimano...Rapid Rise?

6867 Views 18 Replies 11 Participants Last post by donthucktoflat, Apr 26, 2013

mastakilla

Discussion Starter · Jul 27, 2010

I am buying a new bike with the 10 speed XT set up. I am a little peeved to see that shimano does not offer a rapid rise version of the rear derailler for this group.

My question is this, will a rapid rise derailler from the 9 speed group work well??

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willtsmith_nwi

· #2 · Jul 27, 2010

Rapid Rise and Dual Control were the giant gaffe that allowed SRAM to transform from an upstart to a legitamite rival. I'm not surprised that they have no desire to continue it.

Shimano didn't invent low normal derraileurs. They have been out before, and abandoned before. History repeats itself.

shiggy

· #3 · Jul 27, 2010

mastakilla said:
I am buying a new bike with the 10 speed XT set up. I am a little peeved to see that shimano does not offer a rapid rise version of the rear derailler for this group.

My question is this, will a rapid rise derailler from the 9 speed group work well??

A 9-speed RD will not work at all.

mtnbiker72

· #4 · Jul 27, 2010

Nope...Shimano like SRAM has chosen not to make their 10 speed MTB shifters compatable with their 9 speed rear derailleurs.

However, if you insist on 2x10 speed with a Low Normal (Rapid Rise) derailleur, you can use the R770 flat bar road shifters with a 9 speed rear derailleur and a road front derailleur.

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willtsmith_nwi

· #5 · Jul 27, 2010

mtnbiker72 said:
Nope...Shimano like SRAM has chosen not to make their 10 speed MTB shifters compatable with their 9 speed rear derailleurs.

However, if you insist on 2x10 speed with a Low Normal (Rapid Rise) derailleur, you can use the R770 flat bar road shifters with a 9 speed rear derailleur and a road front derailleur.

Given the finicky nature of Shimano shifting, they were pretty much forced to go to a new actuation ratio (branded Dyna-Sys). He can use the flat bar shifters, but I think he will have to constantly clean out his cable housing to keep things running smoothly.

I have noticed that there are no dual control options for Dyna-Sys yet. I suspect this is why there are no Low-Normal Dyna-Sys derailleurs. The advantage of reversing the spring direction is that it assists the downshifting action and reduces the amount of pressure you must exert on the lever. In the opposite direction, gravity and shift gates do the work. So it helps a lot with the wrist flipping motion in Dual Control.

No Dual Control ... no need for low normal. I also noticed all their MTB derailleurs are direct routing and their levers are "thumb only" compatible. With the exception of the shadow derailleur technology, Shimano has pretty much followed SRAMs example. Hopefully the result will be shifters that aren't finicky. Competition is good!!!!

On the SRAM side, the move to Exact Actuation will yield compatibility between road MTB shifters. This is good for folks making mash up bikes. Shimano on the other hand will have two incompatible product lines. My guess is they are expecting to push their electronic shifting technology down into their higher road groups ... and someday XTR, so ultimately it won't matter.

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highdelll

· #6 · Jul 27, 2010

willtsmith_nwi said:
...
No Dual Control ... no need for low normal...

I disagree - low-normal works really nicely with grip-shifters

mtnbiker72

· #7 · Jul 27, 2010

willtsmith_nwi said:
Given the finicky nature of Shimano shifting, they were pretty much forced to go to a new actuation ratio (branded Dyna-Sys). He can use the flat bar shifters, but I think he will have to constantly clean out his cable housing to keep things running smoothly.

The same could be said for 9 speed...if you have the chance to ride a quality 8 speed drivetrain (XT or XTR) you can remind yourself how finicky 9 speed is (especially Shimano). Using sealed cables like Gore would help, and of course if you live in a dry weather area it will be less of an issue.

willtsmith_nwi said:
No Dual Control ... no need for low normal.

Low Normal came out 5 years (called Rapid Rise) before Dual Control...the two have nothing to do with each other.

willtsmith_nwi

· #8 · Jul 28, 2010

mtnbiker72 said:
Low Normal came out 5 years (called Rapid Rise) before Dual Control...the two have nothing to do with each other.

Sorry, you're right. I would stick by the notion that dual control and rapid rise makes a good team due to reducing downshift pressure. The down side is you can no longer "force" rapid downshifts. You have to wait for the shift gates to do there thing. Yes it will work fine with a 1:1 gripshift. But it defeats on of the advantages of the gripshift, you can grab as many gears as you like ... with high normal. With low-normal you have to wait.

highdelll

· #9 · Jul 28, 2010

willtsmith_nwi said:
... With low-normal you have to wait.

crank-87

· #10 · Oct 15, 2011

mtnbiker72 said:
Nope...Shimano like SRAM has chosen not to make their 10 speed MTB shifters compatable with their 9 speed rear derailleurs.

However, if you insist on 2x10 speed with a Low Normal (Rapid Rise) derailleur, you can use the R770 flat bar road shifters with a 9 speed rear derailleur and a road front derailleur.

I'm considering doing this; however, wouldn't you need to change to a 9 speed chain and cassette if you're using a 9 speed rapid rise rear derailleur?

shiggy

· #11 · Oct 15, 2011

crank-87 said:
I'm considering doing this; however, wouldn't you need to change to a 9 speed chain and cassette if you're using a 9 speed rapid rise rear derailleur?

You can not use 10-speed shifters with a 9-speed cassette.

The setup in the post you quoted uses all 10-speed parts (with ROAD 10-sp shifter) except for the 9-sp rear derailleur.

crank-87

· #12 · Oct 15, 2011

shiggy said:
You can not use 10-speed shifters with a 9-speed cassette.

The setup in the post you quoted uses all 10-speed parts (with ROAD 10-sp shifter) except for the 9-sp rear derailleur.

So the 10 speed chain will be compatible with the pulleys on the 9 speed rear derailleur? I suppose you could always change out the pulleys. I'm one of the rare few who LOVES rapid rise and have been using it since it came out. My new bike just came with a 2x10 SRAM setup, which - personally - I can't get used to no matter how much I've tried (and I've tried on numerous bikes because I saw everything moving in that direction).

Any idea if you can shift with your index finger with the R770 10 speed shifters like you can with the new 10 speed mountain shifters?

shiggy

· #13 · Oct 16, 2011

crank-87 said:
So the 10 speed chain will be compatible with the pulleys on the 9 speed rear derailleur? I suppose you could always change out the pulleys. I'm one of the rare few who LOVES rapid rise and have been using it since it came out. My new bike just came with a 2x10 SRAM setup, which - personally - I can't get used to no matter how much I've tried (and I've tried on numerous bikes because I saw everything moving in that direction).

Any idea if you can shift with your index finger with the R770 10 speed shifters like you can with the new 10 speed mountain shifters?

10-sp chains/9-sp RD pulleys work fine.

No idea of the ergo of the shifters.

You better stock up on RR RDs.

COLINx86

· #14 · Oct 16, 2011

willtsmith_nwi said:
No Dual Control ... no need for low normal. I also noticed all their MTB derailleurs are direct routing and their levers are "thumb only" compatible. With the exception of the shadow derailleur technology, Shimano has pretty much followed SRAMs example. Hopefully the result will be shifters that aren't finicky. Competition is good!!!!

Shimano shifters (atleast XTR) are both push or pull to downshift.

Now if Sram will just follow Shimano's example and make parts that last

! (Not trying to start a Shimano v. Sram debate, BTW).

Prophet Julio

· #15 · Oct 17, 2011

9 speed is not compatible with 10 speed.

I love my rapid rise with Dual Control. Best downshifting out there!

shiggy

· #16 · Oct 17, 2011

Prophet Julio said:
9 speed is not compatible with 10 speed.

I love my rapid rise with Dual Control. Best downshifting out there!

I think you missed that the question is about using shimano 10-sp flatbar ROAD shifters, which do work with shimano 9-sp mtb RDs.

---- post mangled by autospell on my phone -----

richardchen

· #17 · Apr 9, 2012

Is there no hope for those (like me) that want to run rapid rise on a 10 speed setup? I really miss just hitting the front trigger on my SRAM 10 speed setup when going uphill. Just seems so much more intuitive.

pimpbot

· #18 · Apr 23, 2013

Sorry for the blast from the past....

I don't want Rapid Rise, but I would like a dual control 10 speed hydraulic brake setup. As far as I know, this does not exist. I'm on 3x9 Dual Controls now, and love it. Parts are getting harder to find, especially the levers because the DC freaks (like me) are all hoarding them. M770 series XT levers go for north of $200 on fleabay these days. I remember there was a time when the shops couldn't give them away. I got a brand new set of 1st gen XTRs still in the box with brake lines and fluid at a swap meet for $60.

I would love to find out if somebody could hack in the 10 speed shifter ratchet mechanism from a DC Road lever into the mountain lever. I wish I had one to monkey with. Of course, Shimano isn't big on spare parts. They want you to replace the whole thing of any part of it fails.

I might do some research, tho... See what is possible.

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donthucktoflat

· #19 · Apr 26, 2013

There are dual control xt levers on shimano's website at the moment. ..

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